IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

COMMONWEALTH

VS.

MUMIA ABU-JAMAL

aka

WESLEY COOK

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January Sessions, 1981
NOS. 1357 Poss Instru of Crime Gen
Poss Instru of Crime Weap
1358 Murder
Voluntary Manslaughter
1359 Involuntary Manslaughter

Philadelphia, Pa., June 21, 1982

Courtroom 253, City Hall

Before: HONORABLE ALBERT F. SABO, J. and Jury

APPEARANCES:
  • JOSEPH McGILL, ESQUIRE
    Assistant District Attorney for the Commonwealth
  • ANTHONY E. JACKSON, ESQUIRE
    Backup Counsel for the Defendant
  • MUMIA ABU-JAMAL

Page 2.

(Court convened at 10:20 a.m.)

(The following took place in chambers on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: Mr. Jackson, I thought you said you had some Motion you wanted to present?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, may it please the Court, as Your Honor well knows, I have been ordered by both you and the Supreme Court to continue to defend Mr. Jamal. My consultation with Mr. Jamal causes me -- it results in my representing to the Court that, indeed notwithstanding the Supreme Court order, notwithstanding Your Honor's order, Mr. Jamal will continue to act according to the strategy of John Africa, and that is consistent with his consultations with Theresa Africa, as well as my participation in his defense.

What I'm saying essentially, Your Honor, is that, of course, Mr. Jamal is being represented by me under protest. It is still against his wishes that I represent him. Nevertheless, as Your Honor well knows, it is at least my present

Page 3.

intention to defend Mr. Jamal to the best of my ability with all the vigor that I can put forth. In addition, Your Honor, Your Honor has previously removed Mr. Jamal from representing himself for reasons that Your Honor has previously presented to us. Notwithstanding that Mr. Jamal feels, in deed, that his right to justice has been seriously compromised by Your Honor's ruling. The issue of self-representation was not presented specifically to the Supreme Court so that this matter remains with Your Honor with regard to whether in fact Mr. Jamal could continue to represent himself. If indeed Your Honor has some concern with regard to the activities, the behavior, or the conduct of Mr. Jamal, just as Mr. Jamal assured this Court on Saturday that his behavior would be consistent with the decorum and respect of the Court, I see no reason why Mr. Jamal should not or could not be permitted to represent himself from this point on.

If, in fact, the situation were to arise where Your Honor would consider removing him, well, I believe that that's a matter that Your Honor could take up at that time.

Page 4.

In addition, Mr. Jamal specifically requests the permission to make closing arguments to the jury. He would also ask that he be permitted to question three of the prosecution witnesses of his choice. I appreciate the fact that this might be a hybrid that the District Attorney has vigorously opposed in the past, but I think, under the circumstances where Mr. Jamal is defending himself, indeed for his life, that in the name of justice I believe that this should be allowed. It would cause no burden to the Commonwealth, it would not cause any disruption or interference with the Court's business. I think that to deny Mr. Jamal that opportunity to directly and actively and aggressively participate in the defense of his life would be inappropriate in this matter.

I respectfully ask that Your Honor reconsider your order with regard to Mr. Jamal representing himself, and I request that Mr. Jamal be permitted to proceed from this very point in representing himself.

THE COURT: Mr. District Attorney?

Page 5.

MR. McGILL: I have no response, Your Honor. Whatever Your Honor decides.

THE COURT: No. I said that once I had made a decision to remove Mr. Jamal as the attorney that that would stay; that you are the attorney now. If you want to appeal that, you say that that issue hasn't been resolved at the appellate level, whatever you want to do, you do. But as far as I'm concerned it's already decided. We will proceed with you as counsel.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, the Commonwealth is prepared to proceed.

THE COURT: All right. We'll have to bring the jury in first.

MR. McGILL: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And open court.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I have one moment? I may have a response.

THE COURT: Yes. Did you say response?

MR. JACKSON: Well, there may be an additional comment from Mr. Jamal that I would like to --

THE COURT: I have nothing further here.

Page 6.

Heftner - Direct

I've made my decision. You do what you have to do.

(The following took place in open court in the presence of the jury.)

MR. McGILL: Good morning, Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury.

THE COURT: Good morning.

MR. McGILL: May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. McGILL: Officer John Heftner.

COMMONWEALTH'S EVIDENCE CONTINUED

OFFICER JOHN HEFTNER, (Badge Number 3950, Sixth Police District), having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. McGILL: May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McGILL:

Page 7.

Heftner - Direct

Q. Officer Heftner, on December the 9th, 1981, where were you employed?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Where were you employed?

A. Philadelphia Police Department.

Q. And in what capacity?

A. Police Officer.

Q. What was your tour of duty on that particular evening?

A. Eleven thirty to 7:30.

Q. Now, did you have occasion to seize certain clothing from anyone involved in this case?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And who was that?

A. Officer Daniel Faulkner.

Q. Where did you do that?

A. Inside where -- the rear of 901 wagon.

Q. And at what point did you do that?

A. After we placed him in the wagon en route to the hospital.

Q. And where did you place him in the wagon? Do you remember where the wagon was?

A. At the corner of 13th and Locust.

Page 8.

Heftner - Direct

Do you recall what you had seized from him? One patrol jacket and one police blue sweater. And what did you do with it?

A. I took it to Homicide Division.

Q. I'd ask that this be marked C-24, this to be marked C-25, the name of it would be jacket C-24, and sweater C-25. Would you take a look at C-25, 24 and 25, please. First look at C-24. Can you identify C-24?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. What is C-24?

A. C-24 is the jacket that officer Faulkner had on that night.

Q. While the Court Officer is working with the exhibit I'll ask that also this be marked as C-26, this document. Perhaps you could look at that, C-25. Can you identify C-25, Officer?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. What is it?

A. It's the same sweater that Officer Faulkner wore that night.

Page 9.

Heftner - Direct

Q. Would you put that aside, please, and take a look at C-26, the document? Defense counsel has not seen it. Okay. What is C-26?

A. It's a property receipt.

Q. And who made that property receipt out?

A. I did.

Q. What is the purpose of a property receipt?

A. You put evidence on it.

Q. Sort of maintains the chain of custody of the evidence?

A. Chain of custody, who turns it over.

Q. And where did you submit that?

A. Homicide Division.

Q. And was it to go to the purposes of going to the Chemical Lab?

A. That's correct.

Q. When you saw Officer Faulkner in the wagon did you notice any other of his clothing?

A. His police shirt, pants.

Q. What kind of a police shirt was it?

A. Blue.

MR. McGILL: All right. I'd ask that

Page 10.

Heftner - Direct

this be marked C-27.

THE COURT OFFICER: Officer, do you want to see this?

MR. JACKSON: No.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Would you take a look at C-27?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you identify it?

A. It's Officer Faulkner's shirt.

Q. Would you put that aside, please. Now, when you arrived at the scene or, excuse me, before I get into that, did you notice anything missing at all when you were in the wagon as he was -- as far as clothing was concerned?

A. Yes. His tie was missing.

Q. Did you see his weapon, his actual gun? Did you see that in the wagon?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. But his holster was there, was it not?

A. His holster was.

Q. Okay. When you arrived at the scene what did you do?

A. I got out of my car and I ran between two cars

Page 11.

Heftner - Direct

directly to Officer Faulkner.

Q. And what was your purpose at that time?

A. My main purpose was to get him to a hospital.

Q. And what did you then do in order to effectuate that objective?

A. At that time I ran up, started to pick up Officer Faulkner with the help of other policemen. We took him up to the corner of 13th and Locust and placed him in the wagon.

Q. Now, was there first an attempt to get him in a smaller vehicle?

A. That's correct. When I first started to pick Officer Faulkner up Police Officer Soboloski pulled up in a Plymouth Horizon, which is a small car, and at that time we could not get him in the back of the car because it was too small.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Do you know whether or not -- strike that. I'll ask you if you would, Officer Heftner, would you come down, with the Court's permission, come down to the chart and note on the chart approximately where the location of the body of Officer Faulkner was?

Page 12.

Heftner - Direct

A. Right here.

Q. All right. Speak up loudly.

A. Approximately right here.

Q. Okay. Now of course, you're just estimating, I guess, the size of Officer Faulkner. He was I guess, what, five nine or five ten, and the Volkswagen was a small vehicle? But you're saying generally it was about there?

A. Yeah, in that area.

Q. All right. And where was his head and where were his feet, what direction?

A. His head was facing eastbound, his feet were in like a southeast direction -- and his feet westbound -- northwest on an angle.

Q. I think you've got your directions wrong. Which direction was the head?

A. Eastbound.

Q. Eastbound. And which direction were the feet?

A. Westbound.

Q. And you say southwest, or north, or what?

A. Southwest -- southeast was the head.

Q. Right.

A. And then northwest were the feet.

Page 13.

Heftner - Direct

Q. Right. Okay. And was he on his back at that time?

A. Yes, he was laying on his back.

MR. McGILL: All right. Thank you. You may sit back.

Cross-examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Officer Heftner, when you arrived at the scene were there other officers attending to officer Faulkner?

A. There was one other Officer that I took notice of.

A. Do you know who that officer is?

A. It was Officer Shoemaker.

Q. Now, when you said you took notice of him, what did you take notice of him doing?

A. He was standing over top of Officer Faulkner.

Q. Was he doing anything to Officer Faulkner?

A. To Officer Faulkner?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No.

Q. Did you see anyone doing anything to Officer Faulkner?

A. No, I didn't.

Page 14.

Heftner - Cross

Q. When you saw Officer Faulkner on the ground can we safely assume that you were the first one that actively, as far as you know, came to his assistance, came to provide any aid to him, pick him up?

A. As far as I know, yeah.

Q. What was the very first thing that you did to officer Faulkner?

A. I picked him up underneath his shoulder.

Q. By his shoulder?

A. Underneath his arm.

Q. So would it be fair to say that you stood at his head with your hands under his respective armpits?

A. That's correct.

Q. And what was Officer Shoemaker doing at the time?

A. I really don't -- I really couldn't tell you.

Q. How many officers were at the scene? Do you recall?

A. The only ones I can really testify to would be Officer Shoemaker the initial time that I got there.

Q. Okay. You said for sure because you could identify him. But did you see other officers in that immediate area?

A. As I was picking Officer Faulkner up.

Page 15.

Heftner - Cross

Q. Okay. So that you were picking him up by yourself?

A. That's correct.

Q. Were you operating a wagon?

A. Patrol car.

Q. Patrol car. Were you operating the Horizon?

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. Now, did you actually pick Officer Faulkner up?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you carry him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Alone?

A. No. With the help of other officers.

Q. Did you remove any of his clothing?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Outside of the van?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Did anybody remove any of his clothing outside of the van?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Now, you say not that you know of. Were you in constant contact with him from the moment you picked him up until the time he was placed in the van?

Page 16

Heftner - Cross

A. That's correct.

Q. So it would be fair to say that if anyone removed any article of clothing you would have seen it; isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. He had the jacket on and sweater on; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. He had a shirt on?

A. That's correct.

Q. Had a tie on?

A. I really didn't take notice whether he had a tie on.

MR. McGILL: I have to object. At what time are we talking about? In the wagon or --

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. When he picked him up from the street.

THE WITNESS: I really didn't notice if he had a tie on.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you provide, on the street before putting him in the wagon, did you provide or attempt to provide any first-aid of any sort?

Page 17.

Heftner Cross

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you see anyone attempt to place any pressure, to provide any first-aid?

A. On the street?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No.

Q. Was there a reason why you refused or refrained from attempting any sort of first-aid?

A. From the condition of Officer Faulkner I thought it best to get him to the hospital as quick as possible.

Q. Did you specifically look at his holster when you picked him up?

A. When I picked him up?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No.

Q. At some point you had looked to see his holster; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. When was that?

A. Inside the wagon.

Q. And by the way, Officer Faulkner was unconscious; is that correct?

Page 18.

Heftner - Cross

A. That's correct.

Q. While carrying him either to the Horizon or to the van, did you take notice of any weapon at all?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you see either Mr. Jamal or any other suspect of the defendant at the scene?

A. I saw Mr. Jamal at the scene.

Q. Was that before, during or after you placed Officer Faulkner in the van?

A. It was -- I ran past the defendant going to Officer Faulkner.

Q. And do you know who was with the defendant at that time?

A. Just Officer Faulkner and Officer Shoemaker.

Q. Did you see William Cook?

A. I didn't take notice.

Q. And at the time that you saw Mr. Jamal did you see what if anything Officer Shoemaker was doing in relationship to him?

A. Officer Shoemaker was standing on the other side of Officer Faulkner.

Q. Now, when you say other side -- so that we understand the relative positions, could you return to the

Page 19.

Heftner Cross

diagram, please? Now previously a witness has marked a "J" there for Mr. Jamal and you've just placed an "F" there for officer Faulkner. Is that the relative position of the two individuals when you arrived at the scene?

A. That's correct.

Q. When you stated that Officer Shoemaker was on the other side of Officer Faulkner, could you tell us where you mean? If you could just point it out.

A. He was along this side towards the wall.

MR. McGILL: Indicating the south side.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So then you passed Mr. Jamal, saw Officer Faulkner, and Officer Shoemaker was still further away from you; is that correct?

A. Officer Shoemaker was standing right on top of Officer Faulkner.

Q. Okay. And there was no one with Mr. Jamal at that point? Is that what you're saying?

A. I didn't see anybody.

Q. Was Mr. Jamal was between the Volkswagen and the Ford?

Page 20.

Heftner - Cross

A. That's correct.

Q. And how much space was between the two vehicles, approximately?

A. I really don't know.

Q. Would it be fair to say that if someone else was there you would have passed him?

A. Yes.

Q. You can return to your seat, please.

Q. Officer Heftner, did you hear Mr. Jamal say anything?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you hear anyone say anything at the time, you know, during the time that you were picking Officer Faulkner up? Did you hear anyone say anything in relationship to Mr. Jamal?

A. No, I did not.

Q. After placing Officer Faulkner in the van along with your brother officers what did you then do?

A. I stayed in the wagon, went to the hospital.

Q. You stayed in the rear of the wagon?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did anyone else stay in the rear with you?

A. Yes, they did.

Page 21.

Heftner - Cross

Q. Who was that?

A. Officer Schuck.

Q. Would you spell his name, please? If you know.

A. I think he spells it S-C-H-U-C-K.

Q. While you were in the van with Officer Faulkner I understand that you removed the coat, the jacket and the sweater?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you do anything else to officer Faulkner?

A. We placed a handkerchief over the wound on his face.

Q. Did you do anything else?

A. No.

Q. Did you in any way attempt to apply any pressure to any of his wounds?

A. Just what I just said, the handkerchief to the face.

Q. Now, when you said you placed a hankerchief to his face, did you apply it with pressure?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you notice any other wounds?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Did you remove his belt?

Page 22

Heftner - Cross

A. No, I did not.

Q. Is there a reason why you didn't remove his belt? Did you loosen his belt? Strike that. Did you loosen his belt?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you loosen his shirt collar?

A. I'm almost sure that his shirt collar was open.

Q. In the van?

A. In the van.

Q. But you don't know who did it?

A. No.

Q. And I assume -- and correct me if I'm wrong - Officer Faulkner said nothing, said nothing at all?

A. Nothing at all.

Q. Now Officer, as best as you can possibly remember, when you arrived at the scene you saw Officer Faulkner. Can you tell us the location, the relative location, of his hands to the rest of his body?

A. His hands were at his side.

Q. Okay. Now as best as you can, could you stand up and give us or approximate the position that his right hand or his left hand was? If you could do that by standing so that the jury can see.

Page 23.

Heftner - Cross

A. Approximately here.

Q. So that I can describe it for the record, it appears that both hands are approximately an inch to two inches away from his legs; is that about right?

A. That's about right.

Q. Were the hands in any way, were the arms in any way, folded or bent?

A. Not that I can remember now.

Q. Okay. Please return to your seat. Did you happen to take notice of his hands, see whether or not they were open or closed?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you happen to see if anything was in his hands?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You Would certainly noticed something in his hands if he had had something in his hands; is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. May I see C-3, please, and C-4 too. I'm sorry. When you passed Mr. Jamal was he seated, was he laying on the ground? Or what was his body position? Do you recall?

A. He was seated.

Q. At any time before you left the scene did you see

Page 24.

Heftner Cross

Mr. Jamal on his back?

A. No, I did not.

Q. When you indicate that Officer Faulkner's feet were pointed, I believe you said in a northwesterly direction, could you estimate how far his feet were from the curb line?

A. (No response.)

Q. If you can recall.

A. No, I can't recall.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you, officer. I have no further questions at this time.

MR. McGILL: May I see C-3?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McGILL:

Q. You were not the first Officer at the scene; is that correct?

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. What was your primary purpose when you arrived and observed what had happened?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Asked and answered.

Page 25.

Heftner Redirect

THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him answer it.

MR. McGILL: The question was, what was your primary purpose when you arrived after you had seen the particular circumstances which you observed.

THE WITNESS: To get Officer Faulkner to the hospital.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Was your primary purpose to stop and look for evidence?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: No.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Was your purpose to look for witnesses or people who were standing around?

A. No, it wasn't.

Q. As a matter of fact, the only thing you were concerned with was trying to save his life, wasn't it?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, I'm going to show you C-3. May I approach the witness?

Page 26.

Heftner - Redirect

Q. Where was Officer Faulkner's head in relation to that blood or that stain in the photograph?

A. Right at the top.

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me a moment, please? I'm sorry. Could you repeat it again, sir?

THE WITNESS: Right up here.

MR. JACKSON: So it would be on a place that's not on the photograph?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

MR. McGILL: Just put an "F" where that is.

MR. JACKSON: I would object. The spot he's pointing to is not on the photograph.

THE COURT: You object what?

MR. JACKSON: He wants him to mark an "X" on a blank spot.

THE COURT: What?

MR. JACKSON: He wants him to mark a photograph at a point where he says his head would have been, but it's not in the photograph.

Page 27.

Heftner Redirect

THE COURT: Do you have another photograph?

MR. McGILL: Let me see the other photograph, please?

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. I'm showing you C-10. Would you show in the photograph, if you can, with an appropriate big "F" where his head was, Officer Faulkner's. Now in reference to C-3, again, you have stated that his legs were in a northwesterly direction; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And you placed it on the sketch. So that we're clear it is fair to say, is it not,that his feet are not at the bottom at this "F" as indicated by the sketch but further down because that was merely a letter that you had put; that it wasn't the full extent of his body in relation to the Volkswagen, was it?

A. That's correct.

Q. Do you know how tall he was?

A. He was approximately five feet -- five eleven, five eleven and a half.

Q. And you don't know how long a Volkswagen is,

Page 28.

Heftner - Redirect

right?

A. No.

MR. McGILL: Thank you very much, Officer Heftner.

MR. JACKSON: One moment, please.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Officer Heftner, did you note where in fact Officer Faulkner had his flap jack.

A. Black jack.

Q. Black jack. Did he have that on his person?

A. I didn't notice.

Q. Did you, when he was in the wagon, touch him to see what weapons, you know, what he had on?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Other than the face, where else, if any place, did you see him bleeding?

A. At that time I didn't see anything.

Q. Did you notice anything on his hand? Again, I know that you said there was nothing in his hands but did you see anything on his hands, any blood, any dirt, anything at all on his hands?

Page 29.

Heftner - Recross

A. I don't recall right now.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Officer, you did say when he was in the wagon you noticed that his gun was not there.

A. That's correct?

Q. It was just an empty holster; is that right?

A. That's correct.

MR. McGILL: Thank you, Officer.

(Witness Excused.)

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, at this point I would like to move for the introduction of the photograph so the jury can have an opportunity to see what we were talking about.

THE COURT: Which ones are you talking about.

MR. McGILL: It would be all the photographs, I believe, Your Honor, from C-3 on.

THE COURT: C-3 --

MR. McGILL: They are all limited to

Page 30.

the scene.

THE COURT: C-3 through C-13. How about C-16?

MR. McGILL: Just the scene, I won't show the photographs of Mr. Cook.

THE COURT: Well, C-16 is a photo of 1234 Locust Street; is that right?

MR. McGILL: Yes, that would be fine, too. Whatever depicts the scene which would be all those photographs except for C-21. I would move the introduction of those and ask that they be distributed among the jury.

THE COURT: Do you want to see me at side bar?

MR. JACKSON: Not really, Your Honor. I also ask that D-2 be admitted, D-3, D-4, D-5, D-6, D-7.

MR. McGILL: All of them?

MR. JACKSON: Okay?

MR. McGILL: No objection.

THE COURT: You want D-1, also?

MR. McGILL: That's fine. Everything.

THE COURT: You have D-1.

Page 31.

MR. JACKSON: I don't need D-1, no, because that doesn't relate to the scene.

THE COURT: D-2 to D-9.

MR. JACKSON: That's correct, fine.

THE COURT: And yours is C-3 through 16 except 13, 14 and 15, and not the photos; is that right?

MR. McGILL: That's it.

THE COURT: As I indicated, C-3 to C-13, and C-16 is admitted into evidence; D-2 is admitted into evidence through D-9 and can be shown to the jury.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may we see you at side bar. We don't need the stenographer.

(A side bar conference was held off the record.)

THE COURT: Gentlemen?

MR. McGILL: Yes. The next witness will be Mr. Joseph Kohn.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

JOSEPH KOHN, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Page 32.

Kohn - Direct

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Mr. Kohn, where are you currently employed?

A. Pearson's Sporting Goods.

Q. What is your position there?

A. I manage the Gun Department.

Q. All right. Sir, referring you to the date of June the 27th, 1979, where were you employed on that date?

A. Pearson's Sporting Goods as manager.

Q. I see you have something in your hand. Did you bring, pursuant to subpoena, some of your records from that --

A. Yes, I did.

Q. -- from that particular store? And are you familiar with how the records are kept?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And are those your official business records?

A. Yes.

Q. I'll ask you to take a look at C-22 and also make reference to your records, if you would. Would you keep that by, please. Are you able to identify that weapon?

Page 33.

Kohn - Direct

A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. First of all, what kind of a weapon is it?

A. It's a Charter Arms Undercover .38 Special, two inch barrel, five shot.

Q. Were you able to see the manufacturer's number on that particular weapon?

A. Yes, sir, I was.

Q. And what was it?

A. Serial Number is as stated on the federal file 150293.

Q. Do you also have the records there for the -- with the manufacturer's number?

A. Yes, sir. I have the federal form and the city form.

Q. May I approach the witness, please? May I take a look at that form?

A. Yes, sir, you may. These are the city forms and the big large yellow one is the federal form.

Q. This is what you read as the serial number?

A. That's correct.

Q. Would you read that again?

A. Serial number of the Charter Arms purchased on 6/27/79 is as follows: 510293.

Page 34.

Kohn - Direct

Q. Okay. You had transposed them before, I think.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. This is the correct one, 510293?

A. That's correct.

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me?

MR. McGILL: I'm showing you what is --

MR. JACKSON: So that I'm clear, when he said one five, that was incorrect?

MR. McGILL: No. It's 510293.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Is this a copy of that particular form?

A. That is a copy.

MR. McGILL: I ask that that be marked, please, C-28. Also, would you mark this C-29, as long as you're marking them?

THE COURT: That's C-28 and that's C-29.

MR. McGILL: Yes. Would you show the witness those two documents?

BY MR. McGILL: Are those two documents reproductions of the record?

A. Yes, they are.

Page 35.

Kohn - Direct

Q. Now so that we are clear, would you take, again, a look at the actual revolver there, C-22, and read the number, the manufacturer's number, on that revolver?

A. The manufacturer's number on the revolver is 510293.

Q. That is the same as that indicated on your records; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is there a name indicated on the record as the purchaser?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. And what is his name?

A. Mumia Abu-Jamal.

Q. Would that be Mumia Abu-Jamal?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is that the individual in the courtroom today?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Would you point him out?

A. Right there, sir.

Q. What does he have on now.

A. (No response.)

Q. What is he wearing now?

Page 36.

Kohn - Direct

A. A blue and white striped shirt.

Q. Indicating the defendant for the record, Your Honor.

Q. And on that day, June 27, 1979, did the man that you pointed out just then buy that revolver?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you mentioned that's a two inch --

A. That's correct.

Q. You also sell bullets?

A. Yes, sir, we do.

Q. Would you take a look at the envelope that is connected with that revolver and open that up? Can you tell what kind of bullets they are?

A. Yes, sir, I think.

Q. What are they?

A. They're .38 Special marked with a Plus P made by Federal --

Q. You were just looking at one of them, weren't you?

A. Yes. The other one, Smith and Wesson, .38 Special Federal Plus P, .38 Special Federal Plus P, .38 Special Federal, .38 Special Plus P.

Q. You have been selling bullets as well as weapons for a long time, sir?

Page 37.

Kohn - Direct

A. Yes, sir, I have.

Q. How long?

A. 12 years.

Q. What is the effect, what is the significance of Plus P bullets in that particular revolver?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE WITNESS: Plus P --

THE COURT: May I see you over here?

MR. JACKSON: Certainly.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. JACKSON: The basis of my objection is I don't know whether he's getting into some expertise or talking about some sales jargon. That's my objection.

MR. McGILL: What the individual will say will be that the Plus P's are a very powerful bullet and are used for purposes of deep penetration.

MR. JACKSON: No, sir, not unless he's qualified. He's got to be qualified.

THE COURT: Are you qualifying him as some sort of expert on that? He's already

Page 38.

Kohn Direct

indicated -- you have an expert you can bring in?

MR. McGILL: I have.

THE COURT: Why don't you let the expert testify to that?

MR. McGILL: Sure.

THE COURT: And he's read it and he's indicated what they are.

MR. McGILL: If I would qualify him would Your Honor accept him?

THE COURT: If you can qualify him as an expert, yes. I don't know whether he's -- all I know at this time he's been selling guns and bullets for 12 years.

MR. McGILL: Okay, sir.

THE COURT: I don't know from that.

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Do you also fire weapons?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. How long have you been firing weapons?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR. McGILL: I'm sorry, Your Honor.

Page 39.

Kohn - Direct

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. How long have you been --

A. Fifteen years.

MR. McGILL: Some times I lower my voice. If any of the jurors can't hear at any time, please raise your hands. Sorry, Mr. Jackson.

MR. JACKSON: Sure.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Have you fired those types of weapons, .38 --

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Have you loaded those weapons with Plus P type of cartridges, as well as, other types of cartridges?

A. Yes, many types.

Q. Have you fired weapons that are of that size barrel,- as well as, longer barrels with those types of cartridges, that is, Plus P, as well as, other types?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Have you had any training in firing?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. What kind of training?

A. I've fired at the Philadelphia Indoor Pistol

Page 40.

Kohn - Direct

Range --

MR. JACKSON: Objection. It's not responsive. That's just saying he's fired the weapon, not saying he's been trained.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Have you had any training at all, sir?

A. No, sir, other than firing frequently.

Q. How many years have you fired weapons?

A. Approximately 15 years.

Q. Over what period of time in one year or how often would you fire a weapon?

A. I would say at least ten times a year and as much as two or 300 --

Q. Two or 300 what?

A. I fire weapons constantly in the store to test firearms.

MR. McGILL: All right. Cross-examine on qualifications to the one question as to the effects of a Plus P bullet, on it being fired from that weapon.

MR. JACKSON: I don't know that any questions are necessary since I don't think he's qualified as an expert to give testimony.

Page 41.

Kohn - Direct

THE COURT: Well, I have to make a decision.

MR. JACKSON: Fine, sir.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You've indicated you've received absolutely no training at all; is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And whatever it is you know about weapons is from your experience of firing a weapon for 15 years; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. How often did you fire .38 Special Federal Plus P's?

A. Out of how long a time, sir?

Q. Over 15 years, sir.

A. Over 15 years I really couldn't tell you. Out of a year approximately -- I'm guessing now -- 30 or 40 times.

Q. And were they direct for the manufacturer?

A. Pardon me?

Q. Were these .38 Special Plus P's, were they direct, or do you self-load them?

A. No, sir, we do not self-load. They are direct

Page 42.

Kohn

from the manufacturer.

Q. You measure the grains of powder in the bullets?

A. Do we, sir?

Q. Did you?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how many grains of powder in a Federal .38 Special Plus P?

A. 156, sir.

Q. How do you know that, sir, if you never weighed them?

A. It is written on the box of each size we sell.

Q. And you assume?

A. We assume that is correct?

Q. But you have no way of knowing?

A. No, sir.

Q. And you never made any independent determination as to whether, in fact, each and every .38 Special Federal Plus P bullet has 156 grains?

A. No, sir. We go by the manufacturer.

Q. So that any testimony that you would give with respect to a .38 Special Federal Plus P would be based

Page 43.

Kohn

on something that you've read on a box; is that correct?

A. Or my experience of firing, yes, sir.

Q. But your experience of firing is without the benefit of weighing the grains; is that right, sir?

A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Q. So it would be an assumption on your part; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Isn't the distance and velocity of the bullet depending on the grains of powder in the bullets?

A. Yes, sir, it is and also the barrel length.

Q. Fine. But assume we have the same length of a gun barrel, the bullet may travel faster or longer depending on the grains of powder in the bullet; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So any testimony that you would give with respect to the distance or velocity of this .38 Special Federal Plus P, you would be assuming that what the manufacturer placed on the box is what's in the bullet?

A. That's correct, sir.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. I have no further;

Page 44.

Kohn

questions, Your Honor.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Sir, have you purchased the -- what were the types of bullets that you just indicated? One Smith and Wesson I have.

A. One Smith and Wesson and four Federal.

Q. Have you fired those types?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Have you purchased those types of cartridges?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, my questions will only go to his experience in firing those particular type of cartridges which were marked with such a name and number of grains from the manufacturers.

THE COURT: Would you see me?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: Let me see if I understand you correctly, Mr. McGill. You're saying that you're going to offer him as an expert to show

Page 45.

Kohn

what? The effect of that type of bullet?

MR. McGILL: Of just that type of bullet which he has fired in his experience, that type of bullet and that type of weapon. And also the effect of small barrel to his ability --

THE COURT. In other words, you're comparing the two bullets, the regular type of bullet and this sort of Federal?

MR. McGILL: Plus P.

THE COURT: Plus P, whatever that means.

MR. McGILL: Which is basically, to tell the Court, Plus P is one that --

THE COURT: Has a little bit more.

MR. McGILL: Deeper penetration.

MR. JACKSON: But --

THE COURT: I just want to get this --

MR. McGILL: He will be testifying -- wait a minute -- he will be testifying solely and it will be limited to his expertise in the amount of time that he has fired, which he's indicated, and he will say what his experience has been with those types of bullets from the same

Page 46.

Kohn

manufacturer as which is in evidence. Therefore, his testimony would be limited to that and the weight would be limited to that.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'm going to object in that the only thing this man has said is that he's fired a weapon, he has the experience of firing a weapon. He has absolutely no training.

THE COURT: He's got on the-job-training.

MR. JACKSON: No, he doesn't.

THE COURT: Firing on the job.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor --

THE COURT: And you're telling me that somebody has to go to formal school?

MR. JACKSON: No. Wait a minute. For the expertise that he's going to give it's no more than I fired a weapon.

THE COURT: If you did a lot of firing with guns and you could say when I fired a regular bullet it penetrated a certain target I had, say it went in two inches, and then when I fired with this P Plus it went in four inches.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

Page 47.

Kohn

THE COURT: -- he certainly could testify to that.

MR. JACKSON: If we know that the grains of powder in the bullet were constant. He doesn't know that.

THE COURT: Nobody knows.

MR. JACKSON: Oh, yes.

THE COURT: Nobody knows. He has to go by what the manufacturer says and he can't take a bullet apart, weigh it, put the stuff back again, put it in. He doesn't have to do that because we don't even know if the bullets that were used in this case were really that. We don't know.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. My point is if he's going to testify against a certain kind of bullet without knowing the grains of powder that was in the bullets when we have an expert who can't testify --

THE COURT: Even his expert isn't going to say that.

MR. JACKSON: You don't know if it's the same bullet.

Page 48.

Kohn

MR. McGILL: Same type.

THE COURT: All we know is that type does a certain thing and that's perfectly legitimate, and he can do that. I told you it goes only --

MR. McGILL: The amount of grains doesn't go to the powder, it goes to the weight of the bullet.

THE COURT: The weight.

MR. McGILL: Not the grains.

THE COURT: What does this 158 --

MR. McGILL: That's the weight of the bullet.

MR. JACKSON: Sure.

MR. McGILL: Not the grains.

MR. JACKSON: Sure.

(Side bar conference ended.)

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I have a few additional questions with regard to qualifications? Just a few more.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. McGILL: I have one other question, if I can, and I have no objection to further

Page 49.

Kohn

cross.

THE COURT: Sure.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. First of all, when you talk about 158 grains, that's really the weight of the bullet?

A. That is correct.

Q. Not the powder?

A. Not the powder. The weight of the bullet.

MR. McGILL: Okay. Go ahead, then, Mr. Jackson, if you have further questions.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you know how many grains of powder in each of the bullets, sir?

A. No, sir, I don't.

Q. Does it vary? In your experience of 15 years does the grains of powder in the box of bullets --

A. From the manufacturer?

Q. Yes.

A. It varies very small.

Q. How do you know, sir?

A. How do I know it's a very small amount?

Q. Yes, sir.

Page 50.

Kohn

A. Because there's federal regulations governing the amount of powder loaded in bullets.

Q. So you're assuming the manufacturers are obeying federal law?

A. Hopefully they are, yes, sir.

Q. But my question independent of that --

A. No.

Q. No? No way of knowing. So, again, you just assume?

A. Yes.

Q. Also, sir, you indicated you've fired the .38 Special Federal Plus P bullet before?

A. That is right.

Q. That's correct. And you've fired it as well in a Charter Arms Undercover; is that correct?

A. I have on occasions.

Q. How many times have you fired Federal Plus P in Charter Arms Undercover?

A. At the most maybe twice.

Q. Twice?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now based on your experience of shooting twice, how many rounds would you have fired on each

Page 51.

Kohn

respective occasion?

A. Approximately six rounds.

Q. On each occasion, or total?

A. On each occasion.

Q. And again those six rounds on each occasion you have no idea with respect to the difference in powder load; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Over the 15 years of experience that you've had how many weapons have you fired, sir?

A. Really that would be impossible for me to tell you.

Q. Could you?

A. Quite a number.

Q. When you say quite a number is it over 100?

A. Oh, definitely.

Q. Over 500?

A. Definitely.

Q. And how many revolvers would you have fired, sir?

A. I would say theoretically speaking about 80 percent were revolvers.

Q. Now, when you indicated to Mr. McGill that you fired the weapons in order to test them, what do you

Page 52.

Kohn

mean by test them? To see if they work?

A. That's correct.

Q. That's all?

A. Just to see if they fire correctly.

Q. When you say fire correctly you mean pull the trigger to see if the bullet comes out?

A. And whether it hits the target and how far off it is up, down, right or to the left.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. I have no further questions at this point, Your Honor, with regard to his qualifications.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. How often have you fired Plus P cartridges in .38 weapons?

A. Quite often.

Q. And when you say quite often, would you give me an idea?

A. I would say about at least 70 percent of the time I'm firing Plus P's.

MR. JACKSON: Nothing further as to that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: These Plus P's that you I fired, were they in two-inch revolvers, or larger

Page 53.

Kohn - Direct

or --

THE WITNESS: The majority of them are in four-inch revolvers because two-inch revolvers aren't really supposed to be firing Plus P's.

THE COURT: I see.

MR. JACKSON: Again, I renew my objection, Your Honor, as to his qualifications.

THE COURT: The Court will accept him as an expert for the limited purpose for which the District Attorney has indicated to me he's going to use him.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Tell the jury why Plus P's aren't supposed to be used for those kinds of weapons.

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Now he's talking with regard to why they're not supposed to and that is not the area of his expertise. He's testified with regard to what he did when he fired a weapon.

MR. McGILL: I would like them to hear why.

Page 54.

Kohn - Direct

MR. JACKSON: I would object, sir. It's not his expertise.

MR. McGILL: In response to a question --

THE COURT: Let's go over here, please.

(Aside bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. JACKSON: It's going beyond, sir.

MR. McGILL: It's just that that last question -- because you 're not supposed to do --

THE COURT: Well --

MR. McGILL: That kind of leaves it hanging to the jury. You're not supposed to do that. The question would be why not.

THE COURT: Why are you not? Let me know.

MR. McGILL: Because they're high velocity, bullets in a small weapon, and they penetrate and cause a great deal of damage in a little weapon like that.

THE COURT: What do you mean? It causes damage to the weapons?

MR. McGILL: No. To the target.

THE COURT: Why would that be so?

Page 55.

Kohn - Direct

Do you know?

MR. McGILL: Why? Because of the Plus P. Because if it's a higher velocity than the gun should hold --

THE COURT: I'm not expert in guns.

MR. McGILL: You're right about that because I'm not explaining it very well.

THE COURT: You say you've got a four inch gun.

MR. McGILL: I'll withdraw that question.

THE COURT: Maybe if you put that question to your expert.

MR. McGILL: Yes, sir.

(Side bar conference ended.)

MR. McGILL: I'll withdraw that question, Your Honor. I understand the Court's ruling is that I am permitted in the limited area?

THE COURT: Yes, limited area.

MR. McGILL: Okay.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. You have that and you've looked at that Charter Arms as well as those cartridges; is that correct, sir?

Page 56.

Kohn - Direct

A. That's correct.

Q. Let's talk about Plus P cartridges. What effect does a Plus P cartridge have in that type of weapon?

A. It puts undue stress on the steel of the weapon, high pressure, Plus P stands for high pressure.

Q. What effects in terms of the target area?

A. In the gun trade it's called a devastating bullet.

Q. What do you mean by that, "in the gun trade?"

A. When it hits the target it just almost explodes.

Q. Is it fair to say for deeper penetration?

A. That's correct, higher velocity.

Q. And you counted five, didn't you, in that particular revolver?

A. I did not hear the question.

Q. You counted five in that envelope?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, you noted a two-inch barrel -- is that correct? -- on that particular --

A. That's correct.

Q. In terms of your experience using that, a two inch barrel on a weapon, what significance is that in your experience in terms of accuracy?

A. It's a very close bodied weapon to be used for

Page 57.

Kohn - Direct

close range only.

Q. Would it then be fair to say that in order to be sure that you hit the target you have to be close?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Will you rephrase that question?

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. In order to be sure, certain, of a hit with that kind of a weapon with those kinds of bullets and with that kind of barrel length, what kind of distance must you have --

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

BY MR. McGILL: -- to the target?

MR. JACKSON: Objection unless he's going to qualify to the accuracy of the weapon. He's going beyond this man's area of expertise.

MR. McGILL: He's fired the weapon, Judge. He fired a number of weapons with long and short barrels with Plus P's.

MR. JACKSON: If you must qualify him as to that then I'm going to go through it again.

THE COURT: Qualify him on that.

Page 58.

Kohn - Direct

MR. McGILL: Yes, sir. Long and short, Plus P's and .38's?

THE COURT: Qualify him on that.

MR. McGILL: Then we'll go through it again.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Have you fired various weapons with long and short barrels?

A. I have.

Q. How often have you fired weapons with long and short barrels? And give me an estimate of the time on those.

A. I've fired long and short weapons quite often. I would say short weapons more than long. Over the 12, 13 years of my trade.

Q. All right. And while you've fired them have you noted the particular accuracy of the weapons?

A. Definitely.

Q. And in comparison to the accuracy of long and short barrels have you also noted that --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. --in reference to all of the firing of the weapons

Page 59.

Kohn - Direct

that you --

A. I have.

Q. Does that also include the Charter Arms?

A. That's correct, it does.

MR. McGILL: Nothing further.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Mr. Kohn, the accuracy of the weapon is somewhat dependent upon the person firing it as well, isn't it?

A. That's correct, also.

Q. So when you start to talk about the accuracy of the weapon it's somewhat dependent on your accuracy; isn't that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And would it also be fair to say that your accuracy, as anyone else's accuracy might vary from day to day?

A. It might.

Q. And from time to time?

A. Yes.

Q. Depending upon the weather, as well?

A. I don't think as much as the weather but maybe the stress of the particular person.

Page 60.

Kohn - Direct

Q. Now, you said you don't think it's the weather. Do you know it's not caused --

A. No, sir, I don't.

Q. You're just assuming the weather has no impact?

A. Right.

Q. You're saying whether it's raining, snowing, humid, dry, sun, those things are no factor with respect to accuracy?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. Fine. That's what you say.

A. No, sir.

Q. And you're further saying -- if I understand you correctly -- what about the powder in the bullet itself? Does that have an impact on the accuracy of the bullet?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. What about the weight of the bullet itself? Does that have some impact on the accuracy?

A. Yes, it would also.

Q. So when you also said that the barrel -- are you able to say with any degree of certitude that a two inch weapon is accurate from a -- within a certain distance?

Page 61.

Kohn - Direct

A. I would say yes.

Q. You would say yes?

A. Yes.

Q. Within what distance, sir?

A. An accurate distance?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. Twenty-five feet.

Q. So it's accurate within 25 feet?

A. Within 25 feet.

Q. And so that when you said it's a close range weapon, you're saying that anything within 25 feet is close range?

A. Yes.

Q. And with all of the factors that you just described to us effecting the accuracy -- strike that. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Kohn, any weapon whether it's a long arm, short arm, cannon bazooka or what, the closer you are the greater the possibility that you'll hit the target?

A. Definitely.

Q. So within 25 feet it isn't so much because this weapon is just a two-inch barrel, if you had a long arm within 25 feet the accuracy would not necessarily

Page 62.

Kohn - Direct

be any better than a two-inch; is that correct?

A. Oh, no. It would be much more accurate.

Q. Well, if you're aiming at a point and you hit the point with a two-inch weapon, the target, the point that you're aiming for, how could it be any better if you're on target?

A. Oh, I didn't understand. Then it would be the same. Yes, sir.

Q. So then the accuracy would be the same?

A. That is correct.

MR. JACKSON: I have no further questions as to his qualifications.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Yes, in keeping with Mr. Jackson's question, Mr. Kohn, if this is accurate, with these penetrating bullets at 25 feet, what would 12 inches -- would it be accurate then?

A. Most definitely.

Q. And as a matter of fact, these deep penetrating bullets, the Plus P bullets, policemen aren't even allowed to use them, are they?

A. No sir.

Page 63.

Kohn - Direct

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. Do you have anymore questions?

MR. McGILL: Just a moment, Your Honor, please. I have nothing further. Thank you.

MR. JACKSON: I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

THE COURT: What was that?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry?

MR. JACKSON: I didn't hear you.

THE COURT: I have a few questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You've indicated that you've been at Pearson's for 12 years; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And over that period of time you've pretty much been in charge of the gun department?

A. No, sir, I haven't.

Q. How long have you been in charge of the gun department?

A. Six years.

Page 64.

Kohn - Cross

Q. During that six-year period of time how many guns have you sold, sir?

A. I would only be guessing. We average about close to a thousand guns a year in short guns.

Q. How many Charter Arms, two-inch.

A. Charter Arms is a very popular weapon. I would say approximately 20 to 30 a year.

Q. So over a six-year period of time that you've been in there it would be fair to say -- six times 30, as you said?

A. That's correct, probably.

Q. Yes

A. Probably more.

Q. Probably more. And do you have any information as manager of the store as to how many -- strike that. How many stores within the Philadelphia area sell the Charter Arms?

A. Quite a few, I'm sure. It 's a popular weapon.

Q. Do you know based on your experience as a ballistics expert and as a manager of Pearson's, do you know how many Charter Arms are sold in the area?

A. No, sir, I have no idea.

Q. And you say it's a very popular weapon; is that

Page 65.

Kohn - Cross

right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Would it be fair to say it's one of the most popular weapons?

A. No, I wouldn't say it's the most popular. It is popular because of price.

Q. Now you're familiar with the rifling characteristics of a Charter Arms, aren't you, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many other weapons do you sell that have similar rifling characteristics?

A. Quite a few.

Q. How many? Approximately.

A. I would say 40 percent.

Q. 40 percent of the weapons that you sell have similar rifling characteristics as a Charter Arms?

A. That's right.

Q. Now, you indicated that you sold this weapon to Mr. Jamal; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, you have information that indicates that you; were the sales person?

A. That's correct.

Page 66.

Kohn - Cross

Q. That's reflected on your records?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is there a photograph of Mr. Jamal there?

A. No, sir, there is not.

Q. How is it -- do you know Mr. Jamal?

A. Personally?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No, sir.

Q. How long was he in your presence when you sold him the weapon?

A. Approximately ten minutes the first time and approximately five minutes the second time when he picked the weapon up.

Q. And how is it that you remember Mr. Jamal, sir?

A. Because he was very well spoken and well dressed.

Q. Did you notice any facial characteristics so that in fact you know that this is the man that you sold the weapon to?

A. No, sir.

Q. So in fact you don't know, in fact, this is the man you sold the weapon to, do you?

A. Only by his signature.

Q. Have you seen his signature today, sir?

Page 67.

Kohn - Cross

A. Yes, sir. I have it right here.

Q. Oh, no. Did you see --

A. No, sir.

Q. You're just assuming that the man who signed that is this man?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you don't know that he's the man, do you?

A. I know that he is the man I sold the weapon to.

Q. You know he is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know he is the man?

A. Just like if you would come into my store and buy a weapon, came in two weeks, three weeks or a year later I would remember you.

Q. So you're saying you took particular notice how he appeared at that time?

A. Yes, sir. His mannerism, he was very well spoken and very well dressed.

Q. Did he have --

A. And we did comment on his occupation.

Q. And did he have a beard at that time?

A. No, sir, he did not.

Q. Did he have a mustache at that time?

Page 68.

Kohn - Cross

A. Yes, sir, he did.

Q. Did he wear his hair the same way?

A. No, sir.

Q. You're sure of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you're saying even though his hair was different and he now has a beard you're sure he's the same person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he purchase bullets as well?

A. As I can remember no, sir.

Q. So that I'm correct, too, with regard to this manufacturer serial number, did you read a serial number from some document or from some instrument that started off with 150293?

A. No, sir. I read it wrong. It's 510293.

Q. And that's consistent with all of the records that you have there, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. I And that was the same one that was on that

Page 69

Kohn - Redirect

revolver, wasn't it?

A. Right there, sir.

Q. As much as Mr. Jackson asked you several questions, I want you to look at this gentleman here, right at him, please.

A. Right.

Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that that is the man that you sold that revolver to?

A. No, sir, it's not.

Q. Is he the type of person facially that you would forget?

MR. JACKSON: Objection as to the type of person that someone would forget.

MR. McGILL: That he would forget.

MR. JACKSON: Or anyone else.

THE COURT: Repeat it.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Is he the kind of person that it would appear that you would forget?

A. As he appears now, sir?

Q. As he appeared then and now.

A. As he appeared then, no, sir, I wouldn't forget him. And as he appears now, I wouldn't, no.

Page 70.

Kohn - Redirect

Q. Is he the same man?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. McGILL: Nothing further, Judge.

MR. JACKSON: Nothing further.

(Witness excused)

THE COURT: Does the jury need a recess?

MR. McGILL: The next witness will probably be quite lengthy. If you wish to make an early recess for lunch --

THE COURT: Recess for lunch and be back here at 1:30.

(A luncheon recess was taken until 1:30 o'clock p.m.)

Page 71.

AFTERNOON SESSION

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. McGILL: Do you have a copy?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

THE COURT: Right there.

MR. McGILL: Let me have yours so I don't have to hold this. First of all, Judge Sabo, again allowed Miss Africa to speak with the defendant. She has been speaking with the defendant I would estimate for approximately ten minutes, 15 minutes. The Judge also allowed this conference between the two people, same two people, before the Court started this morning. I believe that may have been as much as ten minutes, that conference.

Your Honor, this question that I wish to ask the Court, really, rather than stopping in the middle of her testimony -- Cynthia white is my next witness. I haven't been as generous as I should have been. Apparently, she has, well basically, three pages plus two, three and a half I guess you'd call it, pages of prostitution

Page 72.

arrests. I want to alert the Court and Mr. Jackson that our knowledge is that she has only three open prostitution charges --

THE COURT: Here in the City of Philadelphia?

MR. McGILL: Here in the City of Philadelphia -- and they will be prosecuted. She is currently incarcerated in Massachusetts for a prostitution offense which she was found guilty of and then she appealed and she is awaiting a trial. Like Municipal Court and Common Pleas here, they have something similar in Massachusetts. She's awaiting a trial for that.

We brought here down on an Interstate Agreement Witness Act. We have her here for the sole purpose of being a witness. Under the law we are unable to prosecute her while she's here for those three prostitution cases. Under the law you can only use her for a witness. You can not use her for any other purpose than a witness. That's specifically stated in the Act, but we do intend to prosecute her when she returns, and if she finishes her other trial to bring her down

Page 73.

for purposes of prosecution for those three offenses.

There have been no dealings. She has had -- received hotel accommodations for one night for two hearings and a third hearing, too. The third hearing was a trial, William Cook's trial, Municipal Court trial. It's my duty to alert everybody of these agreements.

And there has been no agreement in reference to her charges. As a matter of fact, she's already been tried on one of her charges that she had not been tried before the hearing. She has four open charges for the hearing that she testified and now she only has three. She was tried before Judge Bednarek, before April, latter part of April. She was due to be tried in the end of May for her second prostitution case but at that time she was currently incarcerated in Massachusetts. I know of no deals at all directly related to her in connection with this case.

There was one thing the court should be made aware of to the extent that this could be or would be a question, I think. A friend of hers

Page 74.

by the name of Smith who's not a relation but a is very close friend was or has been present with her at several hearings. He at one time was arrested last month, I believe. She was down at that time -- let me think. No, she was not down. She was in Massachusetts at that time. But he was arrested down here and there was some concern over his safety in the prison because of his connection with her. At least I say friend for some time and for that reason we allowed him -- this was a theft charge -- we allowed him to sign his own bail for that theft charge with the assurance that he would appear in Court.

She was not made aware of that until a couple days ago; actually, when I told her about it. I'm trying to think if there's anything else. There was no other deal that I know of at this time for Miss White.

I believe I've done this in order to satisfy my obligation of alerting the court and defense counsel to no deals. At the same time, Your Honor, I point out that the limitation of cross-examination, as I see it, because it's a

Page 75.

non-crimin falsi offense, would be to the open charges and deals to the open charges and cross examination, which I'm sure he will go into at some length on cross-examination. And I wanted to state at this time rather than objecting --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, with regard to the past convictions of prostitution I have no argument to respond to counsel. In fact, I appreciate and understand that those are not crimin and falsi charges. However, to the extent that she does have open charges and whatever the magnitude or non-magnitude of the deal or the existence or non-existence of the deal, I think that I should have an opportunity to explore it with her.

MR. McGILL: Absolutely.

MR. JACKSON: Of course, it's not because I'm doubting counsel. Simply because I think I have a right to do that. In addition to which even though I would not explore the crimin and falsi cases to the extent that she, Cynthia White, has given false information to the police

Page 76.

before, if in fact that false information was given on a prior arrest, even if it didn't result in convictions, I think I should have the opportunity to explore that. I do have information that she's given false information to the police and to that extent I'd like to explore it.

THE COURT: Just a minute. Fencl is on the phone.

MR. McGILL: Off the record.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE COURT: Did you work it out?

MR. McGILL: There's no problem. Mr. Jackson --

THE COURT: So I will know what he's going to do.

MR. McGILL: All right.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, although I won't ask her if she was arrested on such and such a date, I would ask her if she gave the Police false information or non-false information on a certain date on which she was arrested. But I won't mentioned the addresses, because she's given different names and different arrests and

Page 77.

addresses.

THE COURT: You mean when she's arrested she gives different names and addresses?

MR. JACKSON: Yes. The point is has she given false information before. I think Mr. McGill --

MR. McGILL: Well --

MR. JACKSON: Go ahead.

MR. McGILL: Go ahead.

MR. JACKSON: I thought he said he wasn't going to object.

MR. McGILL: I will not object to that part of it, but I think the question will be phrased so that you're speaking about names and addresses, because she has no right to give a statement.

THE COURT: That's right.

MR. McGILL: She could decline. She could say that she was somewhere else. It could be a lie. But that can't be used against her.

MR. JACKSON: I'm just saying it was false information.

THE COURT: Yes.

Page 78.

MR. JACKSON: False information is false information.

THE COURT: You can go into that on redirect if you want. "What was the false information that you gave? You gave a phony name and phony address."

MR. McGILL: I'd like that to be involved in the question. He can say false information such as --

MR. JACKSON: I will get into that.

MR. McGILL: All right.

THE COURT: False information just really can mean anything. All right.

(Side bar ended.)

(The following took place in open Court in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, gentlemen.

MR. McGILL: Good afternoon, Your Honor. May I proceed, sir?

THE COURT: Yes, please.

MR. McGILL: The Commonwealth's next witness is Miss Cynthia White.

Page 79.

White - Direct

COMMONWEALTH'S EVIDENCE CONTINUED

CYNTHIA WHITE, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. McGILL: May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Now Miss White, I'm going to ask you to speak very loudly. All right?

A. Yes.

Q. Please. And into the microphone just so I can watch. Can you hear me all right now?

A. Yes.

Q. If there is any time you cannot hear me or understand my questions, stop me and say to repeat it, please. All right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now first of all, Miss White, you have been -- you're presently in jail; are you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And you presently have been brought down by the District Attorney's office from Massachusetts in which

Page 80.

White - Direct

you were and are incarcerated?

A. Yes.

Q. And you are incarcerated in connection with a prostitution arrest and conviction which you are appealing in Massachusetts to the Common Pleas Court; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You are also, is it not true -- strike that. You also have been arrested many times over the past number of years for prostitution; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And would it be fair to say although I don't come up with the exact number but it could be over 30, 35, perhaps even 38 times, something like that?

A. Yes.

Q. And during the course of the time where you have been arrested in those particular cases you at times would use different aliases; would that be correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you would also at times use different addresses; would that be correct?

A. Yes.

Page 81

White - Direct

Q. Now Miss White, apparently you have three open cases which means cases that have not yet been tried but will be tried in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now Miss White, has there been any kind of arrangement or deal by the District Attorney's office in connection with those particular cases that are outstanding?

A. No.

Q. You have testified in prior hearings, have you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Since the time that you have testified in prior hearings have you also been tried for prostitution in one of the cases that was open before the hearing?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was in April -- was it not? -- before Judge Bednarek; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any deal or any arrangement with our office in connection with that case?

A. No.

Page 82.

White - Direct

Q. Presently you were scheduled to be tried in May, latter part of May, for one of your three open prostitution cases; is that not right?

A. Yes.

Q. And why were you not tried on that case --

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

BY MR. McGILL:Q. -- at that date?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

BY MR. McGILL: Do you know why?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Do you have personal knowledge of why?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

BY MR. McGILL: Where were you when that case was tried?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Rephrase your question.

BY MR. McGILL: Where were you when that case was scheduled to be tried?

Page 83.

White - Direct

A. I was incarcerated in Boston jail.

Q. Has the District Attorney's office at any time made any arrangements whatsoever with the Massachusetts authorities in reference -- that is even if we could in reference to that case in Massachusetts?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. She'd have no knowledge as to any arrangement with the Massachusetts authorities. It's not a question within her scope, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Are you aware of any kind of arrangement at all that we made with the Massachusetts Court System and District Attorney's office?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware now, are you presently aware, that we made no arrangement with Massachusetts at all?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

MR. McGILL: Quite --

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

MR. McGILL: Quite relevant, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: Objection as to how she's going to know that something does not exist.

Page 84.

White - Direct

BY MR. McGILL: How did you know?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection and let her answer.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. How do you know?

A. Give me the question.

Q. The question was how do you know that we have no arrangements or deals with the Massachusetts authorities in reference to your present case?

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. Again, she can't answer for the Massachusetts authorities.

MR. McGILL: She can answer for the Philadelphia authorities, though.

THE COURT: Objection is overruled. Go ahead, please.

THE WITNESS: Because I was trialed and convicted on the case.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. As a matter of fact what were you sentenced to?

A. Sentenced to 18 months.

Page 85.

White - Direct

Q. For prostitution?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you, however, to make it clear, have appealed this particular conviction; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. So you get a new trial in there?

A. Yes.

Q. But as far as you know, and it's because we've told you, we have made no arrangement or deal with Massachusetts in reference to that case; is that not true?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE WITNESS: That's true.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. What kind of arrangement have we made at all with you? What have we done for you or given to you at all that you can remember?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. He's impeaching his own witness. She said there is no arrangement or deal, Your Honor.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. In connection with the case what have we done for

Page 86.

White - Direct

you? If anything.

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. McGILL: It's relevant.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: On three occasions, on two hearings for Jamal and one trial for William Cook, I was lodged in the hotel for security reasons.

BY MR. McGILL: And that was for one day; was it not?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Move to strike, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: See me over here.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I object and move for a mistrial. She's indicated that she was housed in a hotel for security reasons. There is no indication that there was any risk of security to her.

THE COURT: Well, let me -- Mr. District

Page 87.

White - Direct

Attorney?

MR. McGILL: That was the reason for her --

MR. JACKSON: That's what he told her and I'm sure that's what he prepped her to say.

MR. McGILL: All right. Your Honor, it is pretty plain the reasons why she would be held up at a hotel. If she's out in the area walking around 13th and Locust Streets, it's obvious. It's also obvious from the amount of support that this defendant has whether or not it is this defendant himself who has endorsed it, that she would naturally and we would naturally be concerned over her welfare.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, I don't care about the concern. There's been no threat made by Mr. Jamal or anyone else for her to come and say --

THE COURT: On cross-examination you can bring that out, that there's no threat.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, I think you should caution the jury that that's not for security reasons. There's no reason. It's for convenience.

THE COURT: I can caution --

Page 88.

White - Direct

MR. McGILL: That is the reason for it. That is the reason. What I will say in this question, that as far as you know there's no direct involvement of any threat to you of this defendant and she would say no.

MR. JACKSON: No.

MR. McGILL: And then that would be --

MR. JACKSON: Judge, that implies that someone else made it.

THE COURT: Has she been threatened?

MR. JACKSON: No.

MR. McGILL: There have been threats, Judge.

MR. JACKSON: Well, Judge, to say that on each of those occasions she was in a hotel for security reasons, I mean, that inflames the jury as if to say that someone, either Mr. Jamal or someone acting on his behalf, has threatened her life. That's prejudicial. That's prosecutory misconduct because I'm sure he prepped her to say that.

MR. McGILL: You know, I would ask Mr. Jackson if he wants to play games like that --

Page 89.

White - Direct

and I can speak very loud, too, and start pointing my finger.

THE COURT: Cut it out.

MR. McGILL: Very easily I can do that.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, my apologies. It's just so --

MR. McGILL: It happens to be a relevant point and that's the reason for it.

MR. JACKSON: It's not relevant and it's prejudicial and inflammatory.

THE COURT: In other words, she has not --

MR. McGILL: She has received threats.

THE COURT: Is she presently housed in a prison?

MR. McGILL: Yes. But that is in a separate security wing.

THE COURT: She's now housed in a separate security wing?

MR. McGILL: Right.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, you have to understand as well as far as I know Mr. Jamal has never known where this woman was. I certainly never

Page 90.

White - Direct

knew where she was, Judge, and to assume -- and maybe there were threats. We don't know whether it's on this case. We're accepting representations of counsel, and I assume he's saying that there were threats made to her about this case. We don't know who it came from.

THE COURT: Do you want me to say strike from the record for security reasons?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

MR. McGILL: All right.

THE COURT: That's what I'll do.

(Side bar ended.)

THE COURT: I'm striking from the record only that portion of the evidence that says, "for security reasons."

MR. JACKSON: Would you instruct the jury to disregard that remark, as well?

THE COURT: Well, they understand that when I strike something from the record they disregard it. I told them initially that fact.

BY MR. McGILL: Also, Miss White, for a particular reason a friend of yours was arrested last month while you were not

Page 91.

White - Direct

here; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And the District Attorney's office made arrangements to have him sign his own bail with assurances that he would appear at his theft preliminary hearing; is that accurate?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that --

MR. JACKSON: I'm going to object unless she knows that for a fact, Your Honor.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. How do you know that?

A. I was told.

MR. JACKSON: I object. Then it's hearsay.

MR. McGILL: Obviously it's hearsay. She's not the person that signed her own bail.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

BY MR. McGILL: You were told by whom?

A. By the District Attorney's office.

Q. I told you.

A. Yeah.

Page 92.

White Direct

Q. Now other than that has there been anything at all done for you for the purposes of getting you to testify in this case; that is, other than the hotel and what was done for your friend?

A. No.

Q. Now Miss White, I'm directing your attention to December 9, 1981. Do you recall that night?

A. Yes.

Q. On that night at some time shortly before 4:00 a.m. where were you?

A. On the corner of 13th and Locust.

Q. Okay. Now sometimes you have a tendency to go along and then drop your voice. Keep the volume up, please.

A. On the corner of 13th and Locust.

Q. Do you know what corner that was?

A. Southeast.

Q. And would you tell the jury exactly what you saw occur?

A. I was standing on the corner and I noticed the lights on top of the police car and the spotlight in the Volkswagen was in front of the police car, and they were pulling over to the side of Locust Street.

Page 93.

White - Direct

The policeman got out of the car and walked -- started walking over towards the Volkswagen. The driver of the Volkswagen got out of the car. A few words passed. They both walked between the police car and the Volkswagen up to the sidewalk. A few more words passed again between them. The driver of the Volkswagen then struck the police officer with a closed fist to his cheek, and the police turned the driver of the Volkswagen around in a position to handcuff him.

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Move to strike.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. JACKSON: There is no indication what he was doing, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I looked across the street in the parking lot and I noticed he was running out of the parking lot and he was practically on the curb when he shot two times at the police officer. It was the back. The police officer turned around and staggered and seemed like he was grabbing for something. Then he fell. Then

Page 94.

White - Direct

he came over and he came on top of the police officer and shot some more times. After that he went over and he slouched down and he sat on the curb.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Now at the time that you saw that where were you, or had you moved from where you were before?

A. No.

Q. What drew your attention to the incident at all?

A. I just looked across the street.

Q. Did you see the Volkswagen or the police car first?

A. Well, I noticed the police car because of the lights that was on.

Q. Now, when you looked over and saw the police car stopped -- in your testimony you said, when you were referring to the police, you said they. Now how many policemen were in the car?

A. One.

Q. So it was he?

A. Yes.

Q. And what side of the car did he get out of? The police car.

Page 95.

White - Direct

A. Left. I don't know what you mean.

Q. Well, the driver's side, or the passenger side?

A. Oh, the driver's side.

Q. If you don't know left and right, just say some thing else. And when he got out of the driver's side of the car where did the police officer go?

A. He then begun to walk over to the Volkswagen, over to the driver's side of the Volkswagen, but the driver of the Volkswagen got out of the car before he got over to the car door.

Q. Okay. Then what did the police officer and the driver of the Volkswagen do?

A. They were talking. And after they talked they went between the Volkswagen and the police car and walked up to the sidewalk and a few more words passed.

Q. And at this time had you moved from where you were?

A. No.

Q. And then at that point in time what happened? As you said, a few words passed?

A. He then turned around and he hit the police on the right side of his cheek and --

Q. Could you show us where on your face, where the

Page 96.

White - Direct

driver hit the police officer?

A. He hit him on the cheek.

Q. Now you're using your left side. Do you mean that side or your right side?

A. I mean the right.

Q. Which side is it? Just show me which side if you can recall.

A. No, I don't recall.

Q. Okay. If you don't recall something just say that. But you recall it was part of his face, either the right or left, but it was part of his face is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you recall whether the driver of the Volkswagen used his open hand or his closed hand?

A. His closed.

Q. And it was at that point that you said the police officer did what?

A. He turned the driver of the Volkswagen around in a position to handcuff him.

MR. JACKSON: Objection again and move to strike what the officer was intending to do. She just doesn't know.

Page 97.

White - Direct

BY MR. McGILL: Show us what he did, would you please? You can use me, if you would. With the Court's permission?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. McGILL: Why don't you come down for the jury? All right. Now, assume that the driver just hit the police officer in the face. What did the police officer do?

A. He turned around and had him like this, in a position to handcuff him. He didn't put the handcuffs on him; just had him in the position to handcuff him.

THE COURT: Would you repeat that for me?

(The following was read back by the reporter as follows:)

Q. "He turned around and had him like this, in a position to handcuff him. He didn't put the handcuffs on him; just had him in the position to handcuff him."

MR. McGILL: Indicating in her demonstration that she had my left and my right wrists together with my right hand in my excuse me, my right wrist in the cup of my left

Page 98.

White - Direct

palm area, and both of the witness's hands are on my wrist.

Q. Thank you.

THE COURT: Where are your hands in reference to your body?

MR. McGILL: Behind. Sorry, Your Honor. Behind my back.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Now Miss White, when you first see the man running across the street? At what point?

A. At the center of the parking lot where the booth is where you pay to park.

Q. What was he doing then when you first saw him?

A. When I seen him he was running.

Q. And at one time did you look over there in reference to these events?

A. When the police had William Cook in a position to handcuff him.

Q. And did you then -- when was the next time that you looked over to the police officer and William Cook?

A. When he was up shooting at him.

Q. How many times did you see he shot at the police officer?

Page 99.

White - Direct

A. Two.

Q. And then at that time where was the Police Officer's back in relation to the man who was running across the street?

A. His back was facing him.

Q. Indicating for the record pointing to the defendant, Mr. Jamal. And how close did he get to the defendant -- how close did the defendant get to the police officer when you heard those shots or saw those shots?

A. I'm not good at feet but it wasn't too far away. It was very close.

Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you again, if you would, with the Court's permission, come down and demonstrate something else in front of this jury, Miss White. Now assume that you are the man who shot the police officer. All right. And assume that I am the police officer with my back to you. All right?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you show the jury where the defendant was when those shots, first and second shots, were fired? You have to speak up loudly.

Page 100.

White - Direct

A. He came between the cars --

Q. Speak up loudly.

A. -- and he shot like this.

Q. All right. Indicating approximately two, three feet. What about the second shot?

A. I don't remember exactly where it went but --

MR. JACKSON: Sorry. Couldn't hear.

THE WITNESS: I don't remember exactly where the shot went at but like this.

BY MR. McGILL: Okay. How close was he at the second shot?

A. He was still the same distance.

Q. Go ahead. Finish.

A. He didn't move until the police officer fell.

Q. Okay. Now, I want you to turn around, please, if you don't mind my touching you, turn around and move back, a little back. Will you demonstrate to the jury when you said the police officer fell -- and I believe you said he grabbed something.

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor, and move to strike.

MR. McGILL: Judge, that's exactly what

Page 101.

White - Direct

she said.

MR. JACKSON: She has not said that.

MR. McGILL: Read that back, please. Would Mr. Jackson want to hear it read back?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, I would.

THE COURT: How many questions?

MR. McGILL: This was when she was going through the statements of exactly what she observed when she saw the defendant running across the street.

(The following was read back by the reporter as follows:)

A. "I looked across the street in the parking lot and I noticed he was running out of the parking lot and he was practically on the curb when he shot two times at the police officer. It was the back. The police officer turned around and staggered and seemed like he was grabbing for something. Then he fell. Then he came over and be came on top of the police officer and shot some more times. After that he went over and he slouched down and he sat on the curb."

Page 102.

White - Direct

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, again, the basis of the objection is that this witness indicates that something appeared to be and, of course, this witness can only testify as to what she saw or heard.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I thought the objection was that she didn't say it at all.

THE COURT: Go ahead. Let's get to it. Come on.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Miss White, can you stand here, indicate here facing the jury, exactly how the police officer fell after the two shots? You don't have to fall away. Just, you know, give us a general idea how it happened.

A. He turned around, staggered, grabbed himself and fell.

Q. You're indicating your left side, using your left arm. Do you know whether it was his left, or was it his right?

A. No, I don't know.

Q. When the defendant then went over what did the defendant then do after the first two shots and the police officer staggered, appeared to be grabbing for

Page 103.

White - Direct

something, and fell down so you demonstrate?

A. He came over and he stood on top of him and shot some more times.

Q. Now, would you demonstrate, without coming down here, please stand up and demonstrate with your hand and arm exactly what the defendant was doing?

A. Came over and was doing like this here with the gun.

Q. All right. Indicating for the record this time using her right arm she was pointing and going up and down with her right arm three times towards the floor; the elbow was bent at the time that she was moving her arms up and down and her finger was pointed at that time. You may sit. Now Miss White, did you see anything in the shooter's hand?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see in his hand?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Point in time.

THE COURT: Rephrase it.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. When did you see something in his hand?

A. When he was in the middle of Locust street.

Page 104.

White - Direct

Q. And what was it that you saw in his hand?

A. I seen something -- the gun, front part.

Q. Again, do you know whether it was the right, or left hand?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Were you able to see the police officer fire anything at the man who shot him?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. There's no indication that the police officer shot, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Can you rephrase the question?

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Were you able to see the Police officer do any thing to the defendant?

A. No.

Q. Did you see the police officer once he was reaching and apparently grabbing something and falling down? Were you able to see the Police officer's arm?

A. No.

Why not?

A. Because Jamal was standing over him. Jamal's back was like towards me. He was blocking my view from

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White - Direct

the police officer.

Q. Now Miss White, after the defendant shot the Police Officer when he was on the ground what did he then do?

A. He went over and slumped down on the curb.

Q. And what did the police officer do? If anything.

A. Nothing.

Q. What did you do?

A. I stood on the corner 'till the rest of the police came. Then I walked up to where he was sitting at.

Q. To where who was sitting at?

A. Jamal.

Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned the name and also you pointed a few times. I'll ask you, the man who shot the police officer, Miss White, the man who shot the Officer both in the back and also when he was standing over him, is he in this courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you point him out? Would you tell me what he's wearing?

A. Striped shirt.

Q. Is there any doubt in your mind at all that this

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White - Direct

is the man who shot the police officer?

A. No, it's not.

Q. Now, you mentioned that there was another person there, the driver of the Volkswagen.

A. Yes.

Q. Who is he?

A. William Cook.

Q. Had you seen Mr. Cook any time before that night?

A. Yes.

Q. Could I have those photographs? How often had you seen Mr. Cook before that night?

A. Several times.

Q. I show you C-21. Can you identify that photograph?

A. Yes. It's William Cook.

Q. When the defendant came over and shot the police officer where was Mr. Cook at this time?

A. He was towards the wall.

Q. Was there anyone else there besides the defendant, the police officer who was on the ground and William Cook?

A. No.

Q. When you waited for the police as the police

Page 107.

White Direct

arrived what did you then do?

A. I walked up to where he was sitting at.

Q. Indicating the defendant.

A. Yes.

Q. How close did you get to him then when you walked up? Now, if you can't estimate in feet, just tell me should I go forward, or back? Look at where I am now and tell me if I should walk forward, or back.

A. Well, where are you saying that Jamal is?

Q. Good question. Assume that I am Jamal, I am the defendant. Do you want me to move -- and you are where you were when you saw him when you walked up to him. Tell me should I walk up, or walk back?

A. Walk up a little. Okay.

Q. Now, did you get any closer than this to him when you saw him after the police arrived?

A. They were there and I walked up some more.

Q. How close did you get to him when you walked up some more?

A. I got very close.

Q. Show me how close. Tell me to walk forward to the point.

A. Yes.

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White - Direct

Q. All right. Indicating for the record approximately from where Miss White's feet are, I would estimate the most, two and a half feet from the prior position when she walked up and told me to stop. I would say Your Honor, maybe ten feet, 12 feet.

Q. Now, did you have occasion to see the police arrest this defendant?

A. No.

Q. Well, what did you see the Police do to this defendant?

A. Nothing.

Q. Now, when I say the police, what did you think I meant?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

MR. McGILL: All right.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. When the police arrived what did they do? What did you think I meant before?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

MR. McGILL: Judge, can she explain what she meant?

THE COURT: I have no objection.

Page 109.

White - Direct

MR. McGILL: Thank you.

MR. JACKSON: I have an objection, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: Officer Faulkner.

THE COURT: Oh.

BY MR. McGILL: When I said the Police before and you said nothing, you meant officer Faulkner did nothing to this defendant?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. When the police arrived, the other police, when the other police arrived. Okay. With me?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see them take this defendant anywhere?

A. Yes.

Q. What did they do to the defendant?

A. They took him to the wagon. When they approached him and they went over to him he was swinging his arms and kicking, and they was trying to get him under control to handcuff him.

Q. And there was a number of policemen there doing that?

A. Yes.

Page 110.

White - Direct

Q. And did they eventually get him, the defendant, to a wagon?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, this Mr. William Cook whose photograph you identified, did you have occasion to see him later on that particular morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. Down at the Roundhouse.

Q. That's at 8th and Race?

A. Yes.

MR. McGILL: I think this may be the last time for me, Your Honor. May I ask the witness to come to the sketch, please?

THE COURT: Certainly.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. Now I'm going to give you, Miss White, if you would, this marker. Now this sketch, you've seen this sketch before, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now you're going to have to turn over here, if you would. Turn around like that. Please speak loudly so these people can hear what you're saying. All right?

Page 111.

White - Direct

A. Yes.

Q. This, as you know, is 13 feet. This road is Locust Street. You have to say yes, or no.

A. Yes.

Q. This is represented as the police car; this is represented as a Volkswagen; this is represented as a car in front of the Volkswagen. Okay?

A. Yes.

Q. All right now. First of all, would you show the jury where you were when you observed all this?

A. I was on the corner right here.

Q. Okay. Put just a big "X" where you were. Now, would you show where the police officer and Mr. William Cook were standing after officer Faulkner got out of the police car and approached the Volkswagen and then they walked to the sidewalk? Show them where --

A. Are you talking about where they were on the sidewalk?

Q. On the sidewalk, right.

A. Okay. About --

Q. Now, where did you observe the defendant running from?

Page 112.

White - Direct

A. The parking lot.

Q. And where's the parking lot there?

A. This is the parking lot here.

Q. Indicating for the record the large square area on the northeast portion of 13th and Locust. Now, when the defendant came over what direction did he come over from the parking lot?

A. I don't understand what you're saying.

Q. You don't understand. Okay. Again, speak louder, please. When the defendant came over how did he come over? Where did he go?

A. He ran up, ran across the street, came up between the Volkswagen --

Q. All right. Look at me now, please, and speak loud. He ran between where?

A. The Volkswagen and police car.

Q. Point that out where you mean.

A. Came up right between the police car and the Volkswagen.

Q. Speak up loud, again, please. He came from the parking lot to that area. Show us approximately where. Assume, for purposes of this sketch, that the parking lot is from here to there and the booth is somewhere

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White - Direct

around here, because that's not indicated there. Show us where he ran from?

A. The booth was --

Q. Just indicate that, if you would, where he ran from and where he went just by a line. Okay. Now, where was he on that sketch when he shot the police officer in the back?

A. He was on the side -- I mean, on the street.

Q. Put "J" there, if you would, just a "J". Now, when the officer was shot in the back and you said he fell down, where do you recall his falling down? If you can estimate.

A. It was in this area.

Q. Okay. Just put a big "F" there, if you would. And where did the defendant then go after he shot the police officer as he was on his back?

A. He went over and sat down on the curb, right here, I suppose.

Q. You have to speak loud. Now just show it on there, show it on the sketch.

A. Right here.

Q. Indicate or just put a "J" there, if you would. Now, when you walked up from where you

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White - Direct

were to see what had occurred how far did you get?

A. I don't understand what you mean.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. Where approximately do you remember was the wagon where they took the defendant?

A. In was in the street next to the police car.

Q. All right. Just put a little square there. And put a "W" in there, if you would. Thank you very much. You may go back, if you would, to the stand. Now, do you recall approximately how many times the defendant shot down when the police officer was on the ground?

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. The only thing she indicated is that she saw his hand move.

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase your question?

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. You stated that you saw a gun in the defendant's hand in the middle of Locust Street before he shot him in the back; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Page 115.

White - Direct

Q. Did you see anything in his hand, or were you able to see anything in his hand when he was over the policeman?

A. I could tell something was in his hand, yes.

Q. Do you recall how many sounds you heard?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. Not responsive. The question was could she see anything.

THE COURT: That's her answer. I'll let you on cross-examination --

MR. JACKSON: My apologies, sir.

BY MR. McGILL:

Q. All right. Do you recall, if you can recall, how many sounds of shots you heard as you saw the defendant's arm moving in the downwardly direction as you've shown the jury?

A. Around three or four times.

Q. Now Miss White, you did have occasion -- did you not? -- to give statements to the police?

A. Yes.

MR. McGILL: Thank you. Cross-examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Good afternoon, Miss White. Miss White, have you

Page 116.

White - Direct

given false information to the police before at any time?

A. Can you repeat the question, please?

Q. Sure will. Have you given false information to the police at any time before?

MR. McGILL: I would object unless he's referring to specific things.

MR. JACKSON: Well, we can find out how many times. I may not know all the times.

MR. McGILL: Judge --

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The question, again. Have you given false information to the police before?

A. No.

Q. Never?

A. No.

Q. Absolutely certain of that.

A. Yes.

MR. McGILL: Could he explain what he means, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you ever resided on Cecil Street?

Page 117.

White - Direct

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I would object to the specific mention of addresses. If he wants to handle the area he could ask --

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, how can I get at the exact point --

MR. McGILL: You can ask her.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you ever resided on Cecil Street?

MR. McGILL: I would object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That's all right. Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'll ask you again. Have you ever resided on Cecil Street?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell the police you resided on Cecil Street?

A. Yes.

Q. That's false information, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Before I go on do you want to tell us now if you have ever given any other false information to the

Page 118.

White - Direct

police.

A. The names.

Q. On what dates did you give the false information?

A. I don't remember.

Q. On July 8, 1980 did you give the police false information?

A. On July what?

Q. July 8, 1980.

A. I don't remember giving them a statement July 8.

Q. Where were you living on July 8, 1980.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I would object. If he's referring to did she give false names --

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I would object to counsel's argument.

MR. McGILL: -- then ask for that.

THE COURT: Can you rephrase your question? Be more specific.

MR. McGILL: Please.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you live at 110 South 10th Street on July 8, 1980?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you certain of that?

Page 119.

White - Direct

A. Yes.

Q. And on 9/10/1980 you lived at 111 South l0th Street?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember?

A. No.

Q. It's only two days later. Did you move within a two day period?

A. I might have. I don't remember.

Q. So your memory is good as to July 8 and not as to July 10. You just want to be certain.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Yes. I will sustain that.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. On 10/9 -- I'm sorry. On October the 9th, 1980 did you give the police false information?

MR. McGILL: Objection again. If he means addresses and aliases, that's one thing.

THE COURT: Be more specific.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, the only problem is that there may be additional false information.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, may we see Your Honor at side bar? It's clear that he

Page 120.

White - Cross

violated your order.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor --

THE COURT: All right.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows;)

MR. McGILL: I guess this is the last time I agree to anything he's supposed to be doing. He cannot go into any statements or information --

MR. JACKSON: She is going to say yes.

MR. McGILL: Nice and loud so the jury can hear.

THE COURT: Just specific questioning about the name that you have there and the addresses, if she gave those names and addresses to the Police.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. Judge, if she's given additional false information don't I have the right to know? I haven't gone into that. And then did she give anything beyond that.

MR. McGILL: What?

THE COURT: He says he doesn't know whether she gave anything else false beyond the name and address.

Page 121.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: That's right.

MR. McGILL: If she had given statements to say that she was somewhere else instead of where she was it would be, obviously, not false information, Your Honor, because at least that evidence --

THE COURT: Wait a minute. You're saying that she used a different name and a different address when she was arrested other than her own? That I'll allow you to go into.

MR. JACKSON: But if she's given other false information --

THE COURT: How can we do that?

MR. JACKSON: If she says no, then no.

THE COURT: She's already said no and you're showing that she did give a false address?

MR. McGILL: In other words, can you imagine if I could go into a defendant's aliases and addresses and statements that he gave?

MR. JACKSON: She is not a defendant.

THE COURT: What I'm saying is, go in first specifically --

MR. JACKSON: And then ask.

Page 122.

White - Cross

THE COURT: -- and then ask the other questions. Okay?

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, on October the 9th, 1980 did you live at 1702 Pine Street?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you ever live at 1702 Pine Street?

A. Yes.

Q. But you don't know whether it was on 10/9/80?

A. No.

Q. By the way, Cynthia White is your real name?

A. Yes.

Q. On October, I'm sorry, November the 6th, 1980, did you tell the police your name was Debbie Kingston?

A. I don't remember when I told them that.

Q. Well, how many times have you told them that?

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than once?

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than twice?

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than ten times?

Page 123.

White - Cross

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than 38 times?

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, objection.

THE COURT: I'll have to sustain the objection, counsel.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Is Debbie Kingston your name?

A. No.

Q. So that was not the truth?

A. No.

Q. That was false information?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you living at 1702 Pine Street on that day?

A. On what day?

Q. November 6, 1980?

A. I don't remember.

Q. On August the 8th, 1980 were you living at 2105 Cecil Street?

A. At 21 what?

Q. 2105 Cecil Street.

A. I never gave that address.

Q. You didn't give the police that address?

A. 2105? No.

Page 124.

White - Cross

Q. 2105 Cecil Street.

A. No.

Q. Did you give them any Cecil Street address on August 8, 1980?

A. I don't remember the date but I gave a Cecil Street address, yes.

Q. So why are you saying on August the 8th you didn't give them that information if you don't remember?

MR. McGILL: Objection. She answered the question. She says she doesn't remember.

THE COURT: She says she doesn't know.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'm sorry. I thought you said --

THE COURT: No.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. On January the 4th, 1981 did you tell the police your name was Sydney White?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell the police you lived at 1215 Rodman Street?

A. I don't remember. It was a while away.

Q. On August the 6th in 1981 did you tell the police your name was Cynthia Martin?

Page 125.

White - Cross

A. I might have. I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell the police on that same day that you lived at 1504 Catherine Street?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you live at 1504 Catherine Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember if you lived there on August the 6th, 1981?

A. No, I don't.

Q. On August the 21st, 1981 did you tell the police you lived at 2105 Cecil Street?

A. 2105?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. I never used that address.

Q. You never used 2105 Cecil Street?

A. No.

Q. You're certain of that?

A. Positive.

Q. So if the court records -- strike that. I'm sorry. On October the 8th, 1980 did you tell the Police that you lived at 2105 Cecil Street?

A. I never used the address.

Page 126.

White - Cross

Q. Yes, or no, ma'am. Did you tell the police that?

A. No.

Q. On December the 18th, 1980 did you tell the police that you lived at 2105 Cecil Street?

A. No.

Q. On June 17th, 1981 did you tell the police that you lived at 2105 Cecil Street?

A. No.

Q. Now, you've indicated that you never gave the police the address 2105 Cecil Street; is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you give them any address on Cecil Street?

A. Yes.

Q. What address?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: That's right. Go ahead. You can answer.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. What address?

A. It's 2120 South Cecil.

Q. From what period of time did you live at 2120 South Cecil?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

Page 127.

White - Cross

THE COURT: I'll let her answer it. You can answer.

THE WITNESS: I never lived at 2120 South Cecil Street.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Oh, but you give them that address any way? Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes.

Q. That was false information?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Repetition.

MR. JACKSON: I'm just asking this for the first time.

MR. McGILL: Obviously it's false if it's not true.

MR JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. McGill. Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON: On October the 9th, 1981 did you tell the police that you lived at 1311 Fitzwater Street?

A. On what date?

Q. October the 9th, 1981?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember if you were living at 1311

Page 128.

White - Cross

Fitzwater Street on October the 9th, 1981?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember where you were living? Is that what you're saying?

A. You asked me on that specific date. I don't remember.

Q. You lived at 2105 South 6th Street; did you not?

A. South 6th Street?

Q. Yes, 6th.

A. No.

Q. Have you ever lived on 6th Street, South 6th Street?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever tell the police you lived on South 6th Street?

A. No.

MR. JACKSON: May I have this marked Defense Exhibit --

MR. McGILL: May I see it, please?

MR. JACKSON: Sure. I'm sorry. D-10.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Judge.

THE COURT: Let me see you over here.

MR. JACKSON: Pardon me?

Page 129.

White - Cross

THE COURT: Let me see you over here.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: He has an objection.

MR. JACKSON: What I want to see is if it refreshes her recollection.

MR. McGILL: Of course that's not an official record at all, Judge.

THE COURT: I know that.

MR. McGILL: She never authorized it so to be --

MR. JACKSON: Well --

MR. McGILL: Excuse me? Is that Judge Wilson over there?

MR. JACKSON: It may refresh her recollection.

MR. McGILL: If the Court pleases, the two black jurors may know him.

MR. JACKSON: Just because they're black --

MR. MCGILL: Or anybody.

THE COURT: Let me say this; What is the purpose of this mug shot?

Page 130.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: I'm not going to show it to the jury. It's just to see if it refreshes her recollection.

MR. McGILL: You can't use them unless you authorize them.

THE COURT: What are we going to do with this? She said that she didn't give them that address or she doesn't live at that address.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I said 2122.

THE COURT: What difference does it make?

MR. JACKSON: That's just to show that she gave somebody the information, Judge.

MR. McGILL: He knows that's improper, Judge. He's trying to get --

THE COURT: She's already admitted that she's given false statements and false addresses and picked up for prostitution, picked up for prostitution a million times. So what? Okay?

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

THE COURT: She admitted it.

(Side bar conference ended.)

Page 131.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, on 12/17/81 where were you living?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't know?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. Now, on any of those dates that I mentioned did you provide the police with any other false information other than that which I've gone over with you?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: No. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Names and addresses.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. That's the only false information you gave?

A. Yes.

Q. You're certain of that, too?

A. Yeah.

Q. As certain as you were when you said you never gave any false information?

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I would object. When you're arrested --

THE COURT: Sustained. Let's go.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Page 132.

White - Cross

Q. Now Miss White, you gave the police several statements -- is that right? -- about this incident?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. Four.

Q. Four written statements?

A. Yes.

Q. How many oral statements?

A. Excuse me?

Q. How many oral statements? By word of mouth how many statements did you give?

A. Four.

Q. Were there any statements that were not written?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. One.

Q. Other than the four written statements and this one that you said wasn't written -- I supposed that was taped; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to the police at any other time about this incident?

A. No.

Page 133.

White - Cross

Q. At no other times?

A. Where they took the statements, no.

Q. Pardon me?

A. No.

Q. So you're saying every time that you talked to the police about this incident a statement resulted either orally on that tape or they wrote a statement?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw it each time?

A. Excuse me?

Q. You saw the statement each time that you gave it to the police?

A. Yes. I signed it.

Q. So it would be fair to say that the only time you discussed this case with the police was five times; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How about the District Attorney? How many times have you discussed this case with the District Attorney?

A. I don't know.

Q. Would you approximate for us?

A. I don't know.

Q. Okay. We'll do it this way: Was it more than ten

Page 134.

White - Cross

times?

A. I don't know.

Q. You just have no idea at all. Could it have been 100 times?

A. No, it wasn't that many times.

Q. How about 50?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Could be 50, then?

A. No.

Q. Between 25 and 50 times?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Since returning from Massachusetts have you talked to the District Attorney?

A. Yes.

Q. Talked to the police?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a statement from that conversation you had with the police?

A. Yes.

Q. You've seen it?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that you talked to them?

Page 135.

White - Cross

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. How many days ago?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Now that would have been a sixth statement, though would it -- because we have a statement from you on 12/9, on 12/12, 12/17 and 12/24 and, I believe, there's a tape recording on 12/24? You say those constituted the five times you talked to the police so this time you talked to them within the last week or so would have been the sixth time; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. At least. So you were mistaken when you said there were only five times. So that I'm clear and the jury is clear, would you think again. Have you talked to the police any other times about this case?

A. No.

Q. Are you certain of that, too?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, when you spoke to Mr. McGill -- since you've been back from Massachusetts how many times did you talk to him.

A. I don't remember.

Q. How long have you been back from Massachusetts?

Page 136.

White Cross

A. Since May 28th.

Q. Since May 20th?

A. Since May 28th.

Q. And you've been in the institution since May 28th. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you can't even approximate for us how many times you talked to him from May 28th until today?

A. No.

Q. When was the last time you talked to him before today?

A. Saturday.

Q. This past Saturday; is that right? This past Saturday?

A. Excuse me?

Q. This past Saturday, two days ago?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know when before then you talked to him? Before you do that, how long did you talk to him?

A. Not long.

Q. How long was "not long?"

A. I don't know. It wasn't that long.

Q. Two days? Two hours? I mean it's all relative.

Page 137.

White - Cross

Q. When you say "not long" let us know what not long is. An hour, two hours?

A. I don't know. About a half hour to an hour. I don't remember.

Q. Okay. And before then you saw him a couple of days before then as well; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that conversation and the previous conversations, as well, Mr. McGill went over your testimony; did he not?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Well, what did you talk about?

A. When you say go over my testimony, you mean my statement or just talking? I don't understand what you say.

Q. Let me do it this way: Tell us what you talked about.

MR. McGILL: Objection. At what point? Saturday? Other days?

MR. JACKSON: The day before Saturday. The visit before Saturday's visit. Tell us what you talked about.

THE WITNESS: (No response.)

Page 138.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: We know you've got such a good memory since you remember everything that happened on December 9th.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Please, no comments.

MR. JACKSON: Tell us what you discussed, please.

THE WITNESS: The case, just the case.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did Mr. McGill make suggestion to you with regard to the testimony?

A. No.

Q. He didn't tell you anything at all with regard to your testimony?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. See how the words changed?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Didn't he tell you at all about your testimony, what your testimony should be?

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you how the testimony should be presented?

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A. No.

Q. You're certain of that?

A. Positive.

Q. He didn't ask you to go through any demonstrations that he would ask you to perform in Court?

A. No.

Q. Now, when you made these statements to the police was it the truth when you gave it to them?

A. Yes.

Q. Absolute truth?

A. Yes.

Q. About what happened on that date?

A. Yes.

Q. The full truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Just asking. Now, you gave a statement to the police on December the 9th as well; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. About 4:15 in the morning; is that right?

A. I don't know what time it was.

Q. Pretty soon after the incident; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now before we get into what you actually said in

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the statement, can you tell us had you been drinking that day?

A. No, I hadn't.

Q. None at all?

A. None at all.

Q. Prior to this incident how long had you been there on that corner?

A. Before it happened?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. About 30, 35 minutes.

Q. Pretty much in the same spot?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you with anyone?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. A man.

Q. Who?

A. I don't know his name.

Q. Known him from before?

A. No.

Q. Was he with you the full 30 or 35 minutes?

A. No.

Q. How long was he there with you?

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White - Cross

I don't know. Maybe about five, ten minutes, something like that.

Q. And when he left how long afterwards was it that this incident happened that you said you observed?

A. Repeat the question, please.

Q. Sure. You indicated that you were with this man five or ten minutes; is that right?

A. Yeah.

Q. And what I'm trying to find out is, after the man left how long afterwards was it that you observed this incident. Or was he there when you observed this incident?

A. Yes.

Q. So as soon as this incident happened that's when he left; is that right?

A. No.

Q. When did he leave?

A. I don't know.

Q. So you were both watching this incident at the same time?

A. Yes.

Q. You just lost sight of him?

A. No.

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White - Cross

Q. Well, tell us.

A. I lost sight of him when the police put me in the car and took me to 8th and Race to take my statement down. That's when I didn't see him no more.

Q. So that if I understand you correctly, you're saying that until you left the scene this man was with you?

A. (No response.)

Q. Is that correct?

A. Yeah. He was talking to the police.

Q. He was talking to the police, too?

A. He was talking to the Highway person.

Q. Pardon me?

A. He was talking to a Highway Police.

Q. Pardon?

A. He was talking to a Highway Police.

Q. Highway Police. And what was he saying to them?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know this man's name?

A. No.

Q. Could you describe him for us?

A. Black, he was heavyset. That's all I can remember.

Q. Approximate age?

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White - Cross

A. About 27, 28.

Q. Height?

A. I don't remember.

Q. What kind of hair? Did you see his hair?

A. Yeah.

Q. What kind of hair?

A. Just short Afro.

Q. Short Afro?

A. Yeah.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. I don't remember.

Q. If you saw him again, would you recognize him?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you seen him since that night?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever asked where he was or who he was?

A. No.

Q. The man was looking in the same direction that you were when this incident happened?

MR. McGILL: I would have to object. She can only speak for what she can see herself, Your Honor. Objection.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

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White - Cross

MR. McGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Would it be fair to say that he was looking in the same direction that you were looking when you looked --

MR. McGILL: Objection. If she knows.

MR. JACKSON: I'm only asking you to answer what you know, of course.

MR. McGILL: How would she know unless she was looking through his eyes?

THE COURT: Rephrase your question, counselor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see what this man was doing when you observed this incident?

A. He was standing there.

Q. And in which direction was his face pointed? Same?

A. (No response.)

Q. Same direction as yours?

A. No.

Q. He was looking a different way?

A. Yeah.

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Q. So he wasn't watching, looking, at the incident, you're saying?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: I'm asking the question, that's all.

MR. McGILL: That's the first question that the objection was made to.

THE COURT: She already said that he was looking in a different direction.

MR. JACKSON: I don't know if that means he couldn't see what was happening with regard to the incident.

MR. McGILL: Objection. She can't say what he saw.

THE COURT: Please. She can only testify to what she saw.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I know that you can't tell us what the man saw or what he was looking at, but I want to know whether or not his face was in a position to observe the police officer being shot?

A. I really don't know. I wasn't really paying attention, you know, what he was looking at. I wasn't

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White - Cross

looking right into the man's eyes. I was watching him.

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

MR. McGILL: Indicating the defendant with her finger.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So that how close to this man were you during this time?

A. I don't know. I don't know.

Q. You don't know how close he was to you?

A. He wasn't far away.

Q. Because you were talking weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Weren't you talking during the time of this incident?

A. No.

Q. Never said anything?

A. No.

Q. When this incident happened you never talked to that man again?

A. No.

Q. And you said you weren't doing any drinking at all that evening?

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White Cross

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. Did you have a conversation with anyone else in that corner an hour before this incident?

A. No.

Q. And just prior to arriving at the corner where were you.

A. Repeat that again, please.

Q. Yes. Just before you got to the corner where were you coming from?

A. From Spruce Street.

Q. 63rd and Spruce, Front and Spruce, where?

A. 13th and Spruce.

Q. From a hotel?

A. No.

Q. On the corner of 13th and Spruce?

A. Yes.

Q. You know the police officers of the Sixth District pretty well?

A. Repeat that again, please.

Q. Do you know the police officers of the Sixth District pretty well?

A. No.

Q. Come in contact with them pretty often?

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A. No, not unless when they arrest me, that's when.

Q. Are there some that you don't get along with?

A. No.

Q. Didn't you tell the District Attorney that there was one that you didn't get along with?

A. From the Sixth District?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Which District is he from, the man that you don't get along with?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor, as being irrelevant.

THE COURT: I sustain the objection.

MR. JACKSON: Pardon me?

THE COURT: I'm sustaining the objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Who is that police officer?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained. No comments from the people in the audience. You can go out, leave.

BY MR. JACKSON:

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White - Cross

Q. Before we get back to the specifics of your statement, did you see Mr. Jamal beaten that night?

A. What I see was Jamal sitting on the curb swinging his arms with closed fists and kicking, and the police swinging back and trying to get him under control to handcuff him.

Q. So I'll ask my question again. Did you see Mr. Jamal beaten that night?

MR. McGILL: I object. Repetition. She answered the question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see Mr. Jamal struck with a club or night stick or any other instrument by the police?

A. I seen him swinging out. I don't know if he made any contact.

Q. What were they swinging?

A. I don't know what you call them.

Q. The little blackjacks?

A. The ones you put in your pocket.

Q. Yes. How many police officers had those blackjacks out?

A. I don't remember.

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Q. How many police officers were around him?

A. It was a few. I don't remember.

Q. When you say a few would it have been four, or five or six?

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than one of those police officers had a blackjack in his hand; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any police officers with their guns out?

A. No.

Q. You never saw any Police officers with their guns out?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Pardon me?

A. No.

Q. At no time during this entire incident until you were taken away did you see any police officer with a gun out; is that what you're saying?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Repetition.

THE COURT: She's already answered that, counsel.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Page 151.

White - Cross

Q. How long did they beat Mr. Jamal?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question, please.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How long did you see them striking Mr. Jamal?

MR. McGILL: I would object to that, your Honor.

THE COURT: Would you rephrase that question? What are you talking about?

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, she's --

THE COURT: Come here. Let me see you.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: Jackson, if she says that she saw them struggling to put the handcuffs on him, if that's what you're talking about --

MR. JACKSON: No, sir. She said she saw them swinging the nightsticks, the blackjacks. That's what she said.

THE COURT: She said they were struggling over him trying to put handcuffs on him.

MR. McGILL: Judge, she said they were

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White Cross

using --

THE COURT: You're going to say that now? Why don't you go back to the struggling and let her describe what happened instead of you telling her what happened?

MR. JACKSON: Judge, she's already said. She said, "What do you call those things?"

THE COURT: She said she saw them in their hands. We don't know what happened. Why don't you let her tell the story?

MR. JACKSON: I will.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, can you tell us what you saw those officers doing with those things in their hands? Describe to us as best as you possibly can.

A. Swinging but I didn't see them make any contact.

Q. Can you stand up and demonstrate what you saw them doing? Assume that you have the blackjack in your hand. Demonstrate to the jury what you saw them doing?

A. They was swinging.

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White - Cross

Q. And how many times did you see them do that?

A. I don't remember.

Q. How long a period of time did you see them do that?

A. I don't know. I'm not good at time.

Q. And you said you didn't see them make contact with him; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. Why is that?

A. I couldn't tell.

Q. You couldn't tell what?

A. They was making contact.

Q. Why? You couldn't see Mr. Jamal?

A. No. I seen him. I couldn't tell they was making contact.

Q. Okay. Let's get to the statement you made on December 9, 1981. You remember that statement?

A. December 9?

Q. Yes. Do you remember the statement?

A. Yes.

Q. And you signed the statement; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you signed the statement because Detective Culbreth asked you to sign it if it was true; is that

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White - Cross

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you signed it it was because what you read was, in fact, the truth; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was not -- okay, strike that. Now you indicated that you saw the police officer shot -- is that right? -- in this statement?

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I would only object at this point if she could have the statement. I have a copy for her.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

MR. McGILL: You can keep yours.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

MR. McGILL: So that she may have an opportunity to refer to it.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'm going to go over each and every one of the statements. If he wants her to go over them now I have no objection.

MR. McGILL: If I could make a suggestion? If I could show her where the statements

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White - Cross

are and if Mr. Jackson could refer to different portions with a question and answer, and if she recalls saying that and if they were accurate. May I show the witness, Your Honor?.

THE COURT: That's the statement that he's talking about?

MR. McGILL: December 9. Here's December 12. Here's December 17, 2a, 2b, 3. I told the witness the three statements and what order they were, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: I would like the witness to read the statement that was given on December 9.

THE COURT: To herself?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, to herself to refresh her recollection.

(The jury was excused.)

(A short recess was taken.)

(The following took place in open Court in the presence of the jury.)

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed, Your Honor?

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THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss white, you've had an opportunity to review the statement that you gave the police on December the 9th?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that statement represent the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Just as an example let me refer you to page three of the statement. Last question and answer can you read it aloud, please?

A. "Did you see any struggle between the officer and any of the two men."

Q. Your answer was?

A. "No, there was no struggle."

Q. Is that the truth?

A. I didn't see any struggle.

Q. You didn't see any struggle?

A. No, because after he turned him around in the position to handcuff him I looked across the street. I didn't see any struggle.

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White - Cross

Q. What about you indicating that William Cook struck the Police Officer?

A. That's when I did notice. Struck or struggled, same thing.

Q. Okay. Struck and struggled are different. That's the reason why you didn't tell him?

A. Yes.

Q. So that I'm sure, what do you consider a struggle?

A. When both men are -- they is struggling.

Q. So when the police officer was turning William Cook around there was no struggle?

A. No.

Q. In fact, you're saying that when William Cook struck the officer, the officer didn't budge any at all, did he?

A. What you mean?

Q. When you said William Cook closed his fist and struck the officer, the officer didn't flinch; he didn't move at all, did he?

A. I said he did.

Q. You said he did?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you say he did?

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White - Cross

A. I didn't say it today but I have said it.

Q. You have?

A. Yes.

Q. To whom?

A. I don't know. Whoever asked me. Whoever asked me I don't remember.

Q. Okay. Whoever asked you?

A. Yes.

Q. Your Honor, may I have a moment, please? Miss White, I don't want to return to that but you're absolutely certain that when the officer was struck that he moved -- is that right? The officer moved?

A. Yes, he moved a little.

Q. Did you see the officer's handcuffs?

A. No.

Q. Never saw his handcuffs?

A. No.

Q. Never saw his handcuffs, did you?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Q. During the time that William Cook and the Officer were confronting each other.

A. No, I didn't see any.

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White - Cross

Q. So you're just presuming and assuming that the officer was going to handcuff William Cook; is that right?

A. In the position that it happened, yes.

Q. Yes, you're assuming?

A. Yes.

MR. McGILL: Objection. She responded, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, please.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Now, you indicated in your first statement to the Police on December the 9th at 4:15 a.m. that the defendant was -- and I'm going to refer you to the first page of the statement within the second answer you indicated, "he had a hand gun in his hand. He fired the gun at the police officer about four or five times. The police officer fell to the ground, starting screaming." Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you told the police that the man shot the officer four or five times and then the officer fell to the ground; is that right?

A. That's what --

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White - Cross

Q. That's what it says here?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. He shot him without --

Q. No. My question is: Is this the truth, what you told the police?

A. It is the truth, in some ways.

Q. In some ways?

A. Yes.

Q. In other words, in other ways it's not the truth?

A. It is the truth, it always was just in different words. That's what I'm saying.

Q. Different words? Now, you notice in the statement you said "shot four or five times," period. "The officer fell to the ground." Is that the sequence?

A. I told you what happened.

Q. No. We're referring to what you told the police, not what you told me. What you told the Police on December 9. Did you tell them how things happened?

A. Yes. I told them this here.

Q. And you told them the man shot four or five times and then the Officer fell?

A. That's what I told them here. It's right here.

Page 161.

White - Cross

Q. And that was the truth?

A. I just answered the question.

Q. Okay. You're saying that's the truth. So then when you told us today that the man shot --

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. She did not say that. She said that it was the truth but in different words, ways.

THE COURT: Wait a minute.

MR. McGILL: I don't want the record to reflect that she said that was the truth period.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Just be certain. Is this the truth, what you told the police on December the 9th?

A. I said, yes, in different words.

Q. In different words it's the truth. How can we tell what's truthful in here if we can't go by these words?

A. Because it is the truth but it's in different words, that's all.

Q. You didn't tell the police this?

A. I said it is the truth; it's just in different

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White - Cross

words.

Q. What do you mean by "in different words?"

A. Would you like me to tell you what happened again?

Q. No. I want you to tell me what you mean by "in different words?"

A. That's what I mean.

Q. What?

A. I'm asking you if you want me to tell you what happened again.

Q. You're saying -- and correct me if I am wrong -- that it's the truth but in different words. Now, is the different words that you would use, would they change the meaning of this?

A. Not really.

Q. It wouldn't change the meaning of this?

A. I said not really.

Q. Well, what do you mean by "not really?"

A. It would change it in some way but it's the same thing.

Q. The same thing. So that if you used different words it would still come out that the man shot the officer four or five times, then the Officer fell down to the ground. Is that what you're saying no matter

Page 163.

White - Cross

how you say it that it would still come out that way?

A. I said in different words.

Q. I understand you said in different words. My question is: If you used different words would it still come out to mean that the man shot the officer four or five times, and the officer fell to the ground?

A. No.

Q. So then what's the truth? This, what you said was the truth, or something else?

A. All of it is the truth.

Q. Pardon me?

A. All of it is the truth but in a different way.

Q. Well, you told the police this on December the 9th -- let me back up. Would it be fair to say that your memory of what happened on December the 9th was better on December the 9th than it is today?

A. I don't understand what you are saying.

Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say that you can remember what's happening today if I ask you about an hour from now what happened now, you would remember that better today than you would six months from now, would not you?

A. No.

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White - Cross

Q. No? Is that what you're saying?

A. Yeah. No.

Q. So you re saying that your memory would be better six months later than it is at the same day?

A. I don't understand what you're saying to me.

Q. Okay. I'll go over it again. I want you to understand. You gave this statement on December the 9th at 4:15 a.m. This incident allegedly happened on December the 9th at approximately 3:58 a.m., or something like that. So that within 20 minutes of this incident you gave a statement to the police. Okay. That was the 9th. Today is June 21st, okay, more than six months later. So my question is: Do you remember things better today than you did on December 9th?

A. I still don't follow you.

Q. Once again, you saw what happened on December 9th?

A. Right.

Q. And after seeing it you went in and you talked to the police?

A. Right.

Q. Within 20 minutes after it happened, right?

A. Yeah.

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Q. So I'm saying to you now, you're telling us something different today. So I want to know which incident should we accept, what you told them on the 9th or what you told them today?

A. It's the same thing but in different words, that's what I'm saying to you.

Q. So you're saying what you said today means that the officer was shot four or five times and then he fell. That's what you meant when you testified earlier? You can't shake your head, you have to say yes or no.

A. No.

Q. No?

A. No.

Q. Then what's the difference?

A. It's different. He got shot that many times, but it wasn't all at one time.

Q. You have to speak up.

A. He got shot that many times but it wasn't all at once and he didn't fall to the ground.

Q. Did you tell the police that on December 9th?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell them that on December 12th when you gave another statement?

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White - Cross

A. Excuse me?

Q. Did you tell them that on December 12th when you gave them another statement?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell them that on December 17th?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell them on December 24th?

A. December 24th?

Q. December 24th, the day before Christmas. You gave a written statement and oral statement on December 24th, 1981?

A. I don't remember.

MR. McGILL: The 17th.

MR. JACKSON: Pardon me?

MR. McGILL: The 17th. The 12th and 17th, 9th, 12th and 17th.

MR. JACKSON: And the 24th.

MR. McGILL: No.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. You're right. My apologies. Not on the 24th.

BY MR. JACKSON: Do you recall the date that you gave the tape recording statement?

Page 167.

White Cross

A. No.

Q. How about December 23rd, two days before Christmas? Do you remember that had been the day you gave the tape recording statement?

A. I don't remember.

Q. But, in any event, did you tell the Police or the District Attorney at that time that the officer was shot twice and then he fell?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You remember the first time --

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, I would object. If -- this may be lengthy but if she were able to answer the question she would have to read the 12th and 17th statement --

MR. JACKSON: I'm simply asking her what she remembers, Your Honor.

MR. McGILL: -- so she would know.

MR. JACKSON: I'm not referring her directly to the statement at this point.

THE COURT: Has she read the other statements?

MR. McGILL: I'm not sure, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Let her read the other

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White - Cross

statements. Read the other statements.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. I indicated earlier I was going to ask her on all of them. Fine. Take time to read all the statements.

MR. McGILL: That's right. Your Honor, apparently she misunderstood.

THE COURT: She's finished.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'm sorry. Are you done?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. One moment, Your Honor. Miss White, you've had an opportunity to review the statement?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, when was the first time that you told the District Attorney or the police what you told us earlier today with regard to how the shooting occurred?

A. On the 17th.

Q. That was the first time; is that right?

A. Yeah.

Q. So you had given them a statement on the 9th,

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given them a statement on the 12th right? -- didn't tell them the way you're telling them today; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. And on the 12th what reason did you have to give the police this statement? Were you arrested on that day?

A. The 12th, no.

Q. You were arrested

A. I mean, yes.

Q. You were arrested on the 12th and you gave them some more information because of your arrest; is that right?

A. No.

Q. You just happened to give them more? It was just coincidental that you were arrested and gave them the statement on the same date?

A. No.

Q. It wasn't coincidental was it?

A. No.

Q. Okay. I didn't think so. And on the 12th that's when you told the police for the very first time that William Cook allegedly struck the officer; isn't that

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true?

A. Yes.

Q. And even in that statement you never changed the fact that the officer was shot four or five times and he fell. You didn't change that on the 12th, did you?

A. No.

MR. McGILL: I would object to that. If he wants to read a question and answer, that's one thing.

MR. JACKSON: I'm asking her, Your Honor, if her own testimony --

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Now, on the 17th you gave another statement; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You were coincidently arrested again on the 17th?

A. I was arrested, yes.

Q. And you gave a statement on the 17th?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a coincidence that you gave the statement on the l7th?

A. What do you mean coincidence?

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Q. I mean, did you plan to give them a statement on the 17th?

A. No.

Q. Well, tell us how did it happen that you had the occasion to give them another statement on the 17th?

A. I was arrested and they had my picture down the Sixth District in a contact with Homicide. So when I was downstairs at 8th and Race I called Homicide and told them I was downstairs and it was -- they didn't ask me all the questions. Some of the questions they needed to ask me and about the address.

Q. And you were down in the Round house after being arrested and you called them and said, "Hey, I got some more information for you," Right?

A. No.

Q. They called you?

A. No. I called them and told them.

Q. Why?

A. -- "I'm downstairs," because they wanted to talk to me.

Q. How did you know they wanted to talk to you?

A. Because I seen in the Sixth District they had my picture and "contact Homicide."

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Q. Did they have any problems contacting you on the 12th?

A. I don't understand what you mean.

Q. You're saying that you saw a picture at the sixth District. Where was it? On the bulletin board?

A. Yes, the board they have.

Q. And it said what?

A. It said, "contact Homicide." I don't remember the exact words but I remember it said, "contact Homicide." Numbers were up there.

Q. Did it say, "Cynthia White, contact Homicide," that you were to contact Homicide?

A. I don't remember the exact words.

Q. Let me put it this way: Did you assume that whatever it was meant for you to contact Homicide?

A. Yes.

Q. How often do you go to the Sixth District, Sixth Police District?

A. Whenever I get arrested.

Q. Do you go in there that often that they would post a notice for you in the Sixth District?

THE COURT: Quiet in the courtroom, please. Cut it out.

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White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you understand my question?

A. No.

Q. You're saying there's a notice posted in the Sixth District for you or someone to contact Homicide. And I'm wondering why do they put a poster in the Sixth District for you to contact Homicide rather than just call you or come to your house?

A. I just told you it was because of the address. I had gave them the address and they tried to contact me at the address, and they found out I wasn't living there.

Q. What address did you give them at that time?

A. I don't remember.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor, to the addresses.

BY MR. JACKSON: You don't remember the addresses?

THE COURT: She said she didn't remember.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Let me backup. On the 12th when you were arrested. How did you have occasion to give them a statement on

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that day?

MR. McGILL: Repetitious, Your Honor. Objection.

MR. JACKSON: No, it isn't. I never asked the circumstances, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Could you tell the circumstances of how it was you came to give us another statement?

A. It was the same thing.

Q. You saw another notice in the Sixth District?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it the same one or different?

A. I don't remember.

Q. But you called the number that you saw up there, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were downstairs when you called, right?

A. No.

Q. You weren't? I'm sorry. Where were you? Strike that. How did you get in contact with Homicide on the 12th?

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White - Cross

A. I was at the Sixth District when I called. When I seen it I called.

Q. And what happened after that?

A. They said, "Okay."

Q. They said okay about what?

A. When I had called and I was telling them that I was calling them.

Q. And what did you tell them when you called?

A. They asked me where I was at and I told them I was arrested.

Q. Right. And then what?

A. They said that they think somebody want to talk to me. I wasn't talking to the person that want to talk to me. They said, "it's probably about the statement or something." They don't know, but they'll get in contact with me.

Q. And when did they get in contact with you?

A. When I was downstairs at the Round house.

Q. At the Round house. You didn't tell them you had anything else to tell them?

A. No, not until I went upstairs.

Q. And that's when you told them for the first time that Billy Cook or William Cook struck the officer; is

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White - Cross

that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now back to the 17th when you said that was the first time when you told the police or anyone else that the shooting happened the way you described it today; is that right?

A. Repeat that again, please?

Q. Sure. I believe -- and you correct me if I'm wrong -- I believe you said a little earlier that it was on December 17th that you told the police for the first time that the incident occurred substantially the way you described to us today; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Why didn't you tell them differently before?

A. Because it happened -- they was asking me questions and that's the way I did it.

Q. But they asked you to go on in your own words and describe what happened, didn't they?

A. Yes.

Q. So why didn't you tell them how it happened if you saw it?

A. I did.

Okay. You went on in your own words and described how

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White - Cross

it happened on December the 9th. You went on in your own words and you described how it happened, not in response to any specific question, but you said that on your own; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. But what changed on the 17th?

A. Nothing. They were asking me questions and they asked me in a different way to explain it.

Q. They asked you in a different way?

A. I mean in a different question, you know. He asked me in a different question to explain it.

Q. They asked you to explain it on the 9th, they asked explain it on the 12th. So why was your explanation different on the 17th?

A. I just told you.

Q. Forgive my ignorance. Could you explain to me again why it was different on the 17th?

A. Because they had asked me in a different way to explain it more specifically.

Q. Okay. How was it different that they asked you?

A. I don't remember exactly what he asked me.

Q. Well, how do you know it was different?

A. I remember that it was different.

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White - Cross

Q. But you don't remember why?

A. I don't remember what he said that made it different.

Q. Okay. You gave a statement on the 9th, gave a statement on the 12th. You were asked on the 12th differently than you were asked on the 9th, weren't you?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Okay. You don't remember how you were asked on the 12th but you remember how you were asked on the 17th?

A. Yes.

Q. How about on the 24th? I'm sorry. Strike that. On the 23rd.

A. On the 23rd that was a written statement.

Q. No. I think that was a tape recorded statement.

A. Now what are you asking me about that?

Q. Wasn't that the very first time that you told the police or the District Attorney that the defendant or the man who you described as the shooter shot the police officer twice before he fell?

A. Yes.

Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, your statement on the 9th, you said he shot four or five times, then he

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White Cross

fell. You left that statement the same way on the 12th of December, four or five times and he fell; isn't that right?

Q. And on the 17th what did you tell him?

MR. McGILL: I will object to that. Your Honor, if he wants to read the question and answer from page two --

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'm going from her testimony.

MR. McGILL: It's not a memory game, Your Honor. I think she should be shown and asked.

THE COURT: Come here.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. McGILL: My objection --

THE COURT: I know that but the easiest way to do this would be to read the statement, because I'm sure the jury is just as confused now as anybody.

MR. McGILL: I have no objection to that.

MR. JACKSON: I was going to use the

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White - Cross

Detective to read the statement, Your Honor. I didn't want her to use it.

MR. McGILL: I have no objection if she uses it.

THE COURT: Can she read it?

MR. McGILL: Yes. She's already done that.

MR. JACKSON: Do I have to do that?

THE COURT: She can do it.

MR. JACKSON: I don't want to do it now.

MR. McGILL: I don't want to suggest the way to cross-examine, but rather than just simply saying do you remember --

THE COURT: If you're going to use prior written statements to impeach you first have to see if they remember making the statements and then read the question and answer and see if that's what they said. You're just going generally.

MR. JACKSON: Because I'm going --

MR. McGILL: May I make a suggestion?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. McGILL: It's too much on memory,

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White - Cross

"did you do this, did you leave that the same way, on the 10th you said something" --

THE COURT: This question and this answer --

MR. McGILL: --"what did you see happen, I saw happen, do you remember saying that and now why is that different," it's not fair. It's a general memory test.

THE COURT: All right.

(side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, when was the very first time that you told the police or the District Attorney that Officer Faulkner was shot twice by the shooter before he fell?

A. The 17th.

Q. The 17th?

A. Yeah.

Q. You have the statement. Could you read it to me please? Could you find it?

A. Excuse me?

Q. Would you read it to me where you told the police on the 17th that he was shot twice?

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White Cross

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, may I show the witness?

THE COURT: He asked her.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor. I want her to testify.

MR. McGILL: Page one and two.

THE WITNESS: "Miss White, would you go on in your own words and tell me when you first saw the police car and what followed after that?"

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Excuse me? Could you tell me where you're reading from?

A. The 17th.

Q. What page, ma'am?

A. One.

Q. Okay. Go on.

A. "I saw the police car in the middle of Locust Street at 13th Street going towards 12th Street. The top lights and a bright light were on a Volkswagen in front of it. The police car then pulled the Volkswagen over to the curb in front of the pizza place. The police officer got out of the car, started walking towards the Volkswagen and the driver of the Volkswagen

Page 183.

White - Cross

got out. I couldn't hear what they were saying. They then walked between the police car and the Volkswagen to the sidewalk.

The police officer said something else to the driver of the Volkswagen. And that's when the driver of the Volkswagen struck the officer. The officer grabbed him and turned him around. The man's hands was behind his back. The driver of the Volkswagen's back was to the officer. That's when the other guy that I saw running from the parking lot ran up and was practically on the curb. That's when the officer fell down, when the guy was shooting at the officer. Then the guy went over to the officer and was standing over him, shot three more times. The guy went back over to the curb and sat down".

Q. Let me know when you get to the point where officer was shot twice and fell. That was my question.

MR. McGILL: At the bottom of page two, Miss White.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I would like to interrupt and say this was the reason why I didn't want Mr. McGill -- he's having her read things that are not responsive.

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THE COURT: Come here. Come here.

MR. McGILL: Read the bottom of page two.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: I had made a suggestion how we should do it. You don't want to do it that way. He had offered the help and you said you don't care, and then when he says something you're complaining. All I'm saying to you, why don't you just ask.

MR. JACKSON: But --

THE COURT: If you want to show inconsistencies go to the statement and just ask the question and get your answers.

MR. JACKSON: It wasn't necessarily to point out an inconsistency. I wanted to know the very first time --

THE COURT: She told you the 17th and that's what she's reading now.

MR. JACKSON: But what she read didn't say --

THE COURT: The whole statement.

Page 185.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: But it's not in there.

THE COURT: He says it's down at the bottom. I don't know. I don't have the statement in front of me.

MR. JACKSON: That's what I mean. He pointed out the first portion. I read it and it wasn't there.

THE COURT: That's your interpretation of it. Let me see this.

MR. JACKSON: So now on another sheet --

THE COURT: Well, it's the same date. That's what I'm talking about.

MR. JACKSON: I told her --

THE COURT: You're trying to see that she got a good memory. We all know she's small and not exactly bright and she's a prostitute. So let's read what's in here.

MR. McGILL: She probably knows better than I do.

THE COURT: "Describe as best you can what happened as the man running was almost on the sidewalk. Answer: He pointed the gun at the Police officer and shot him about one or two times. Then the

Page 186.

White - Cross

Officer fell, and he went over and stood above him and shot three more times." Well, that's it. She was reading up here. She probably didn't get down --

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

MR. McGILL: She actually read this.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. McGILL: It says that and that says that, so they're both together.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. McGILL: By that and that I'm talking about page one and page two.

THE COURT: All right.

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, let me direct your attention to page two of the last full question and answer. Would you read that for us, please?

A. "He pointed the gun at the Police officer and shot about one or two times. Then the Police Officer fell, and he went over and stood above him and shot three more times."

Q. That was the truth?

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White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember testifying here in this matter on January 8, 1982?

A. (No response.)

Q. Do you?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall this question on page 15 by Mr. McGill, "Now, when this man got almost to the curb what then happened?"

"That's when he fired a shot, the first shot."

"Question: Now, when this man fired the shot is that the same man that ran across the street from the parking lot?"

"Answer: Yes."

Q. Now, you indicated it was one shot on that date; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember testifying on January 11, 1982?

A. Yes.

Q. Remember this question and answer on page 83: "Question: --" in the middle of the page, Mr. McGill.

MR. McGILL: Thank you.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Page 188.

White - Cross

Q. "Question: What did he do?"

"Answer: He fired the " --well, it says show, and I'm sure it's a typo -- "He fired the first shot."

"Question: And where did he fire the first shot? In what direction?"

"The back."

You indicated at that time on January llth, there was one shot before the Officer fell, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. So why are these different? I mean, can you reconcile it for us because it's important? You said on December 9th -- and I'm not going to go through it, you know what you said. Then you testified in Court under oath twice on two occasions and you said he fired once and then he fell; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is after you had given the statement to the Police; isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. So why did you change it?

A. What you mean change?

Page 189.

White - Cross

Q. Why did you change your testimony? Why did you change the description of how the shooting occurred?

A. Change it in what way?

Q. Well, on the llth and on the 8th you said the man, the shooter, shot one time and the officer fell. On the 17th you said the man shot once or twice and he fell. On the 9th you said he shot three or four times and then he fell. On the 23rd I believe you said something else and I'm not certain. I mean, each date you changed the sequence of events.

MR. McGILL: Objection to the statement of the last part.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'm not going to argue. Fine. The description of how the shooting took place changes so I want to know why?

A. It doesn't change. I explain why on the first two statements.

Q. Why under oath did you swear to God to tell the truth and say that the man was shot once and then he fell?

A. I said it was one or two times.

Page 190.

White - Cross

Q. You didn't say that.

A. That's what I said.

Q. You didn't say that, ma'am, on both occasions. You said one time -- you were very clear, you were very clear. So you're saving that even though you testified, swore to God, that that was a mistake?

A. It was one or two times. Whether it was one or whether it was two I don't know.

Q. Well, it's very important.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Your Honor, she has made her statement; one or two times.

BY MR. JACKSON: You're saying -- so that I understand you, then -- that the truth, regardless of what you may have said at any other time, you're saying that he shot one or two times? Is that your answer?

A. Then he fell.

Q. After how many -- okay. How many shots did the man fire when he came over -- how many times did he fire at the officer before he fell?

A. I just said one or two.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Mr. McGill, I'd asked you to point out the statement that she gave to the Police on March 24th of this year, if there

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White - Cross

is a copy, from Internal Affairs.

MR. McGILL: Yes, right here.

MR. JACKSON: Oh, thank you. I'd have the witness review this, please. In fact, why don't you just read the entire statement for us and that way the jury will have the full opportunity to determine what it is we're talking about.

MR. McGILL: I would object, Your Honor. It's improper. Ask questions.

THE COURT: Why don't you ask specific questions?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Go on. Fine. Read the statement, then.

Finished reading it, ma'am?

A. Yes.

Q. Again, let me ask you -- well, we'll get back to this. Let me ask you was that statement true when you gave it to the Police?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was given on what date?

A. March 24th, 1982.

Q. 1982?

Page 192.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. I ask you, again, did you see the Police strike Mr. Jamal?

A. I told you what I saw.

Q. The question is: Did you see the Police strike Mr. Jamal?

A. I seen them swinging at him trying to get him under control.

Q. All right. We'll do it this way, then, ma'am.

"Question," on page one, see if this refreshes your recollection. "After the shooting and the Police arrived exactly what did you see?"

"Answer: Jamal was sitting on the curb and the police wagon -- that was the stakeout wagon -- came up. One of them got out; one stayed in. I guess he was calling on the radio. Another wagon came the other way and they seen a Policeman laying there, and they started hitting on the guy."

Q. Remember making that statement?

A. Yes.

Q. "Question: How many Police hit him?"

Q. "Answer: Must have been about four or five."

Q. Do you remember giving that answer?

Page 193.

White - Cross

A. What page are you reading?

Q. I'm sorry. Page two now. My apology to you. First question on the page. I'll read it again. "How many Police hit him? Answer: It must have been four to five." Remember that?

A. Yes.

"Question: How many Police were there?"

"Answer: A lot."

"Question: I mean when he was being hit."

"Answer: Maybe three or four."

"Question: How did four to five hit him when only three to four were there?"

"Three to four cars and wagons were there. There were more Policemen."

"Question: Can you describe the officers that hit him?"

"Answer: No, but I know them when I see them."

MR. McGILL: I would object to that as far as being some sort of impeachment.

THE COURT: Can I see you side bar?

Page 194.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: Pardon me?

THE COURT: Can I see you at side bar?

MR. JACKSON: Sure.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. McGILL: I don't believe that those three or four, five questions go to what he asked her originally.

MR. JACKSON: I agree.

MR. McGILL: The point is did she see him struggle or hit him. The point is was there contact. It's improper. That's why I'm objecting. Clearly what he's trying to do is get some sort of brutality issue in.

MR. JACKSON: No.

MR. McGILL: I object to that because it's not permitted to the point that doesn't impeach.

MR. JACKSON: "How many times did they hit him? A couple of times. One or two each hit him." And because she's already said earlier that she didn't see any contact, and then I'm talking about kicking,and there was just a question

Page 195.

White - Cross

of --

MR. McGILL: Don't go into names because that's most improper at this point.

THE COURT: I don't know if there are any names.

MR. JACKSON: I don't think there are any.

THE COURT: What question are you going to ask so that I am --

MR. JACKSON: How many times did they hit him? One or two each --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. JACKSON: And, "Yes, they kicked him."

THE COURT: Did they kick him?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, that's what she says. And she talked about a Police Officer that she didn't like, and that's when I asked her specifically --

THE COURT: What Police officer didn't she like?

MR. McGILL: Wait a minute. I would object to that.

Page 196.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: Who it was? That's going to demonstrate the bias that we have with the Officer --

THE COURT: You mean the officer that kicked him is the one she didn't like?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: What are you talking about?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. What I'm saying is that that's who it was that kicked him.

THE COURT: Not too loud.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. That's who it was that kicked him.

THE COURT: Well, he already admitted --

MR. JACKSON: I don't know if that's the same one.

THE COURT: The first guy.

MR. JACKSON: Was the first officer --

THE COURT: Yes. Didn't that happen?

MR. McGILL: Judge, without going into this, this is not a civil action.

THE COURT: Yes, I know that.

MR. McGILL: And I would ask that this be limited. If he's going into three or four

Page 197.

White - Cross

questions as to hits, or kicks, that's one thing. But going into reading the whole statement --

THE COURT: And I don't care if she's mad at him.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

THE COURT: That's not relevant here.

MR. McGILL: I think that should be limited.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, let me go on.

Second page, "Question: How many times did they hit him?

Answer: A couple. About one or two each one hit him."

Q. Do you remember that question and answer?

A. Yes.

Q. Another question -- does that refresh your recollection any with regard to Mr. Jamal being beaten that night?

A. I told you, I said what had happened.

Q. Yes, today you're saying that you saw them swing

Page 198.

White - Cross

but you didn't see them make contact, but back when you gave the statement you actually saw him struck. So I'm just wondering if that refreshes your recollection and now you do remember Mr. Jamal being struck.

A. That might have been the word I used, I don't remember.

Q. Pardon me?

A. It's the word I used.

Q. What's the word you used?

A. Beat. I was using it for him.

Q. No. I don't think you used the word beat in here. When did you use the word beat?

A. In the statement.

Q. Let me repeat this. It was a question. "How many times did they hit him? Answer: A couple. About one or two each one hit him." Not beat him, hit him.

A. Same thing.

Q. I know but you're saying the word you used. The word is hit.

A. Same thing.

Q. I'm not arguing. Okay. So my question is does that refresh your recollection with regard to Mr. Jamal being beaten?

Page 199.

White - Cross

A. I told you what it was.

Q. What?

A. (No response.)

Q. Did the Police strike --

MR. McGILL: Objection. Let her finish.

MR. JACKSON: My apologies. Go on, ma'am. I'm trying to clarify it.

THE WITNESS: I told you he was kicking and swinging and kicking back.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Okay. Today -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- you said that you didn't see him come in contact with --

A. I believe I said about the contact was the black thing, if I'm not mistaken.

Q. You have to keep your voice up.

A. I think it was the black thing that we were talking about about contact.

Q. And so you're saying what about the black thing?

A. I said I seen them swinging but I don't know if they made contact, I don't remember.

Q. The next question: "What did they hit him with?"

"The black thing, the thing they put

Page 200.

White - Cross

in the pocket." So you did see them hitting him with the black thing? In Your statement --

A. They was swinging.

Q. Is: Did you see them hitting or not?

MR. McGILL: objection. Repetitious. I think she's explained several times what she means.

MR. JACKSON: I don't think so, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: I did.

THE COURT: She's the witness. Go ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The question is very simply: "Did you see them hitting him or not?"

A. I told you what I said.

Q. What? Should we believe what's in the statement, or what you testified to earlier? You tell us. I mean, take your pick which is the truth.

MR. McGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Take your pick as to what really happened. What you said earlier --

Page 201.

White - Cross

MR. McGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

-- or what you said in the statement.

MR. McGILL: Objection as phrased. She can be asked to explain and she can explain. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Would you rephrase your question?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Is what is in this statement true?

A. Yes.

Q. And the next question, "Did anyone kick him? Answer: Yes, one of them did."

Q. Remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. So that everything in this statement is true, then?

A. I just answered your question.

Q. I have another one. I'm sorry I have so many. So that everything in this statement is true?

A. I explained to you what, you know -- how it was said and the meaning of the words, why I used the words and stuff like that. Okay.

Page 202.

White - Cross

Q. You have to understand, Miss White, the only way that we know what happened is to listen to your words so when they're written or spoken --

A. I told you my words. I told you several times.

MR. JACKSON: Okay, Your Honor, I have further inquiry of this witness but I think because of the hour I request that we recess until tomorrow. I have not examined her with respect to the circumstances of the shooting itself.

THE COURT: How long do you think you'll be?

MR. JACKSON: About an hour and a half, two hours.

THE COURT: Let's see you over here.

(Side bar conference was held as follows on the record:)

THE COURT: It's 5:00 o'clock now. If he's going to be one or two hours --

MR. McGILL: I think the jury is probably sick and tired of hearing this.

THE COURT: All right. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

MR. McGILL: Can we make it 10:00?

Page 203.

White - Cross

Sometimes it's difficult getting her down.

THE COURT: I say 9:30 for us.

MR. McGILL: Okay. Can we have a bring down? Can she make a bring down but not let it go upstairs but give it to me?

THE COURT: Okay.

(Side bar conference ended.)

THE COURT: we're going to adjourn Court until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(Court adjourned at 5:00 o'clock until Tuesday, June 22, 1982, 9:30 a.m.)

Page 204.

I N D E X

Witness DR CR RED RECR
Officer John Heftner 6 13 24 28
Joseph Kohn 31 63 68
Cynthia White 79 115