IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY

CRIMINAL TRIAL DIVISION

COMMONWEALTH

VS.

MUMIA ABU-JAMAL

aka

WESLEY COOK

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January Sessions, 1982
NOS. 1357 Poss Instru of Crime Gen
Poss Instru of Crime Weap
1358 Murder
Voluntary Manslaughter
1359 Involuntary Manslaughter

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COURTROOM 253, CITY HALL
PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA

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TUESDAY, JUNE 29, 1982

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Before: HONORABLE ALBERT F. SABO, J.
(AND A JURY)

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APPEARANCES:
  • JOSEPH J. McGILL, ESQUIRE
    Assistant District Attorney
  • ANTHONY E. JACKSON, ESQUIRE
    Counsel for the Defendant

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JOSEPH MASCIANTONIO, R.P.R.


Page 2.

INDEX

DEFENSE EVIDENCE: DE CE RDE RCE
Dessie Hightower 8 9 10
Dr. Regina Cudemo, M.D. 12 25 31 31
Det. William Thomas, 744 33 84 89
Veronica Jones 94 147 168
Cynthia White 180 188 196

Page 3.

(The following is a discussion in chambers with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: We are back in chambers with both counsel.

Mr. Jackson, I notice that Mr. Jamal has been talking to Jeanette Africa. He had a conference with her for quite sometime now. It is now ten minutes to 1l:00 and she has had a long conference.

Is there any indication as to whether Jamal wishes to remain in the courtroom?

MR. JACKSON: I just consulted with him just before coming back to the conference room and he indicated that he did, in fact, want to remain in the courtroom. When I asked specifically whether he was going to behave himself he said "I am going to be here. If the judge wants to ask me any questions he may. I Intend to stay here today."

THE COURT: That is good enough for me. I would assume that he is going to stay in the courtroom.

Page 4.

MR. MCGILL: I think Mr. Jackson also feels that it maybe in the best interest of the Defendant in maintaining the Defendant's presence.

At this point if nothing is said directly to the Defendant by the judge in reference to the question of whether or not he is going to behave if we just go forward I believe the feeling is he will behave because he won't be placed in a position of having to respond that he would behave.

MR. JACKSON: That is what I am saying.

MR. MCGILL: Judge, I would only ask this, and that is knowing the predictable behavior of the Defendant as soon as he stands up, Judge, at that point it maybe advisable to have the jury leave the room, because in spite of the court order and in spite of the attempts of this court and both attorneys to restrict the publications of the admissible evidence that was reviewed yesterday in camera it has come out in the

Page 5.

paper this morning and he may use yet another platform to get the jury aware directly of this. So, as soon as he stands up I would ask the court to immediately ask the jury to leave, because I would think this maybe another tactic of his in order to get that message across.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MCGILL: Also, Your Honor, just for the record, there has been a discussion this morning between the Defendant and Mr. Jackson. I don't know what they were talking about, but there has been discussions and during the course of that time Mr. Jackson would come to see me and ask me for statements in reference to witnesses and I would give it to him and then he would go through them and then he would talk to Mr. Jamal.

Again, I don't know what they are talking about. However, I want the court to know and the record to reflect the continuing effort by Mr. Jackson to represent his client in the best way possible

Page 6.

and at the same time have a continual communication between Mr. Jamal and Mr. Jackson without my knowing what it is all about, nonetheless efforts are being made.

So, If Mr. Jamal does not wish to assist in any way with Mr. Jackson he certainly has had the opportunity to speak to him and there were several efforts by Mr. Jackson to obtain his consent and cooperation in this defense.

MR. JACKSON: I would like to say for the record, Your Honor, that most of the communication has been one way in that aside from Mr. Jamal not wanting to cooperate with me I nevertheless at each instance that he has been brought into the courtroom I have tried to tell him what I intended to do, or when he is not in the courtroom either to tell him what has happened or what I intend to do.

That has been essentially the extent of the conversation. Although today there was a question that I posed to him with

Page 7.

regard to some information and he suggested a name and in which statement I could find the information.

MR. MCGILL: And did you find -- the information?

MR. JACKSON: Yes. Mr. McGill gave me the information.

MR. MCGILL: Okay. So, he asked you information about a witness that you may call and then you got the information and communicated to him what the information was?

MR. JACKSON: No. I gave him the information. He told me the name. That was with regard to his brother having blood on the hands. I think he said it was Shoemaker, but it was actually McGilton.

MR. MCGILL: There may have been others, too.

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(At this time the discussion in chambers was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

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Page 8.

(JURY PRESENT)

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DESSIE HIGHTOWER, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DESSIE HIGHTOWER-CROSS-EXAMINATION

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MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, just one or two questions.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Mr. Hightower, in reference to your testimony yesterday, when you arrived at the scene of the crime when all the police were there --- do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you wait there until the police wagon was --- excuse me. Until the wagon where the officer was placed in left?

A. Are you saying did the officer leave before I left?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And do you know which way he went?

A. I can't be exactly sure.

Page 9.

Cross-D. Hightower

Q. Now, at the time you --- you testified that there were five shots, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And from the time that you left the parking lot area until the time that you went right across the street from where the scene was and waited and observed what you said you observed, until the time that you left, did you hear any other shots?

A. No, I didn't.

MR. McGILL: Thank you, sir.

MR. JACKSON: I just have a couple of Mr. Hightower.

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DESSIE HIGHTOWER-REDIRECT EXAMINATION

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BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Were you present when Mr. Jamal was taken away from the scene?

A. I think I left before Mr. Jamal did.

Q. You don't know what happened after you left?

A. I have no idea.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much.

Page 10.

Redirect-D. Hightower

No further questions.

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DESSIE HIGHTOWER-RECROSS EXAMINATION

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BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. You think you were there before he left or are you sure?

A. I am pretty sure I left before Mr. Jamal did.

Q. If I were to tell you that nowhere in any of your statements ---

MR. JACKSON: (Interposing) Objection.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Have you at anytime in any of your statements said that you left before the Defendant left?

A. I can't be exactly sure. I don't think so, though.

Q. When was the first time that you ever thought about whether or not you left before the Defendant left or after the Defendant left?

A. I left before Mr. Jamal did.

Q. When was the first time that you realized or

Page 11.

Recross-D. Hightower

you told anybody that you left before the Defendant left? Was it yesterday, today?

A. Possibly my second statement, but if not my second statement it would be today.

Q. If I were to tell you that it is not in the second statement it would be today, is that right?

A. Yes.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you. Nothing further.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

MR. MCGILL: Does the court have any questions?

THE COURT: None.

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(WITNESS EXCUSED)

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MR. JACKSON: The defense would call Doctor Regina Cudemo.

DOCTOR REGINA CUDEMO, M.D., having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Page 12.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

DOCTOR CUDEMO-DIRECT EXAMINATION

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BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Doctor Cudemo, on December 9th, 1981 would you tell us where you were employed?

A. Thomas Jefferson University Hospital.

Q. In what capacity?

A. As a psychiatric resident on call in the Crisis Center.

Q. Would you tell us what a psychiatric resident is and what a psychiatric resident does?

A. Well, It varies, but I am in a training residency program and we evaluate patients who come in for any kind of psychiatric problems. Any kind of consultation from the medical service that they feel and the patient agrees for us to be seen.

Q. Now, you are no longer at Thomas Jefferson, is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Fine. Now, on December 9th at approximately 4:00 a.m. were you working?

A. Yes, I was.

Page 13.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

Q. Where were you working?

A. In the Crises Center.

Q. So that the jury and I will know could you tell us or describe to us the relationship to the lobby area of the emergency room where the Crises Center would be?

Let me do this. We have a sketch and that maybe of some assistance to you.

If this is --- I will be out of your way in one moment.

If this is the entrance from the street to the emergency room lobby and the electric doors, or the automatic doors, are over in this area, this is the receiving desk and this is another area over here, I assume that the treatment rooms are back here?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell this jury where approximately would be the area where you work?

A. It would be off the board up in that corner.

Q. Up in this corner here?

A. Yes.

Q. Back in here?

Page 14.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Doctor, do you have reason to come into either the lobby area or the treatment rooms of the emergency ward?

A. On occasion.

Q. Specifically let me direct your attention to December 9th at approximately 4:00 a.m.

Did you have occasion to come in contact, or did you have occasion to observe Mr. Jamal?

A. At 4:00 a.m., no.

Q. At about what time?

A. (Pause) I am unclear about that.

Q. If you can approximate that would be fine?

A. Perhaps 4:20.

Q. Where did you come in contact with him? Where did you make your observation?

A. Actually at the time and at this time I cannot identify the person you say as Mr. Jamal.

Q. But you saw someone. Could you describe the person that you saw?

A. It was a black male.

Q. Could you describe his hair?

A. It seemed rather bushy. That is all I can say.

Page 15.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

Q. Would it be very similar to Mr. Jamal's in terms of the Dreadlock style?

A. I cannot be clear about that.

Q. Nevertheless, where did you make your observation --- when you made this observation where was this individual?

A. On the floor on what I call the treadles of the emergency room.

Q. Okay. That would be the floor leading to the treatment area --- I am sorry, the treadle leading to the treatment area?

A. Yes.

MR. JACKSON: Could I have the diagram, the sketch, again, please?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Just so we are clear, are you talking about the treadles that would be over in this area leading to the treatment rooms? Again, this is the entryway.

A. Yes.

Q. He was on the treadle?

A. Right.

Q. And where were you?

Page 16.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

A. Could you identify that, please?

Q. I don't know if it has been identified at all. I know there is a doorway here and this is the reception desk along with the little cage of some sort.

A. That is all the lobby?

Q. This is just the lobby area.

MR. MCGILL: There are photographs if you wish?

MR. JACKSON: Let me check.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I hand you some photographs that have been previously marked. Can you tell me first of all if this appears to be the treadle that you are talking about?

A. No.

Q. Would this be it?

A. No.

Q. Would you look at these photographs and see if either of these photographs display the treadle that you are talking about?

MR. JACKSON: For the record, those photographs being C45 through C51.

Page 17.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

A. No. None of these do.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Okay. You can put them down for a moment. The doorway leading to the treatment area, is there a cigarette machine or candy machine next to it if you recall?

A. I don't. No. I don't recall.

Q. Let me again hand you C48 and ask you to look at that again If you don't mind?

A. Okay.

Q. Does that seem to be the door?

A. Yes, it is the door, but it is in the lobby.

Q. It is in the lobby?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the door that you said you saw where the man was he was on the treadle in the lobby area?

A. No.

Q. Where was he, on the treatment side?

A. Yes.

Q. Again, could you estimate for us from the diagram where you were in relationship to him? You were not in the lobby area?

A. No.

Page 18.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

Q. Maybe that is the difficulty we are having. You were not in the lobby area?

A. That is correct.

Q. How far away were you from him?

A. Approximately eighteen to twenty feet.

Q. And were there police around the man?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. How many?

A. Approximately four to six.

Q. Four to six officers?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, where you made your observation, were you there before the police and the man arrived, or vice versa?

A. (No response)

Q. In other words, did you walk in on them, or did they come in and then you saw them?

A. When I became aware of them they were there.

Q. By the way, where was this man when you first saw him, the black man with the bushy hair?

A. On the floor.

Q. Do you know how he got on the floor?

A. No, I do not.

Page 19.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

Q. And the police when he was on the floor were in close proximity to him?

A. (Pause) Yes.

Q. Now, what portion of this man's body did you see?

A. His head. His arms. His right leg.

Q. You could not see his left leg?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Could you tell us what, if anything, obstructed your view?

A. The counter.

Q. Now, when you talk about a counter --- I understand it is difficult to describe it, since probably none of us have been there, but as best as you can when you say "a counter obstructed your view" can you tell us in relationship to at least the man on the floor was it just his left leg that was obstructing your vision?

I am sorry. Was it the counter just hiding the left leg, because you saw the rest of his body, is that right?

A. I don't remember if I ever saw his back.

Q. Now, the counter is how high?.

Page 20.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

A. Approximately three feet.

Q. And there were four to six officers?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Could you see the officers' faces? Were they facing you or were there backs to you, or what?

A. Well, It varied. It would depend.

Q. Now, you indicated that you could see his hands. What, if anything, was he doing with his hands?

A. They were in handcuffs.

Q. Behind his back?

A. No. In front of him.

Q. They were in front of him?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Did you see him do anything with his hands even though they were in handcuffs?

A. Only raising them into my view.

Q. And when he was raising them could you demonstrate in what way that was done?

A. Like this.

Q. Okay. When he raised it was it done slowly, or forcefully? Can you describe to us how it was

Page 21.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

done?

A. (Pause) Not really. Just raised.

Q. How many times did you see his hands raised?

A. Only once that I remember.

Q. Now, do you remember what the police officers, if anything, were doing to the man?

A. I only saw them standing around him.

Q. You just saw them standing?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Did you at anytime see an officer raise his foot?

A. I didn't see any feet of a policeman.

Q. You didn't see any feet of a police officer?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Do you recall testifying in this matter once before?

A. Yes.

Q. At a hearing in this matter?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I don't have the notes of testimony from that, but maybe you can tell me. Did you give some indication that you saw a police officer raise his foot and thrust it

Page 22.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

in the direction of Mr. Jamal?

MR. MCGILL: I would object to that, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Or words to that effect?

MR. MCGILL: She can testify to what she observed and not an impression or suggestion.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Could you tell us if you previously testified, or had given a statement that you saw a police officer or officers' foot raised?

A. I did not say anything about policemen's feet.

Q. What did you say then?

A. I saw a policeman raise his leg.

Q. And when you saw him raise his leg what did you then see him do?

A. I could not see below his knee. I don't know what he did.

Q. Because of the counter?

A. True.

Q. Did he keep his leg raised?

Page 23.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

A. I didn't notice.

Q. You don't know whether he ever put it down or not?

A. No. I don't know.

Q. Did you take your eyes away from him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was there something that distracted you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was it?

A. I saw the black male raise his head, arms and right leg.

Q. You saw him raise his hands, arms and legs at about the same time the officer raised his leg or afterwards?

A. (Pause) They were very close together.

Q. You also heard a scream, did you not, or a yell, or moan or groan?

A. I believe I heard a moan.

Q. How long this this moan last?

A. (Pause) Not long.

Q. And this moan that you heard was after you saw the police officer raise his leg, is that right?

A. Yes.

Page 24.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

Q. And did you see that police officer or any other police officer raise their leg or foot or anything again?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you remain at your point of observation?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You are saying after you saw the police raise his leg and you heard the moan and you saw the Defendant hands go up you left?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. That was not the sequence.

MR. JACKSON: I am sorry.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You can give me the sequence. I want to find out the sequence of events that you observed and heard before you left?

A. The policeman raised his leg, the black man raised his head, arms and right leg. There was a moan.

Q. Then what, if anything, did you do?

A. I then left.

Q. Immediately?

A. Within a minute or two.

Q. Within a minute or two?

Page 25.

Direct-Dr. Cudemo

I just want to press this point a little bit.

After you heard and saw those observations that you just described, did you turn away or did you continue to look at the man and the police officers?

A. I did not continue to look at them. I did not.

Q. Did someone tell you to turn around or leave the area?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor. Hearsay.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Why did you not continue your observations?

A. I was asked to leave the area.

Q. By whom?

A. Another policeman.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

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DOCTOR CUDEMO-CROSS-EXAMINATION

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BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Doctor, the sketch here ---

Page 26.

Cross-Dr. Cudemo

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, may I get the sketch?

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. This is where we are. This photograph also is suppose to represent this area. It is an electric eye or some sort of other mechanism that opens up as you approach the doors, is that right?

A. Right.

Q. There are some treadles in there to open up the other doors, or what is the story?

A. What I called treadles were right here and they open the doors going this way.

Q. The treadles are inside, but they open the doors. Okay. I should tell you that these photographs are about two months after December the 9th. These are February the 4th. So, I don't know what happened.

Now, as I understand your testimony you saw a black male who was there and you are not sure who that was?

Page 27.

Cross-Dr. Cudemo

A. Right.

Q. However, you also indicated a number of police were around and then you observed at one point the individual raising his hands in some way, a moan and a leg raised of a police officer, is that correct?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Did you see anybody strike or hit or kick or punch that black male?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You are saying you didn't really get a good look at him and you don't know who he was?

A. Right.

Q. I would tell you that this Defendant was there at that time.

Now, Doctor, during the course of the time that you were talking or you made these observations you had other duties?

A. Yes.

Q. What were your primary duties at that time?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I was in consult for a patient in room B and at that time that was my primary duty, plus helping to

Page 28.

Cross-Dr. Cudemo

helping to coordinate for medical care.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Now, you were moving back and forth at a rather busy time, is that correct?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. At the time you made this observation it was rather busy, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, it would be fair to call it hectic at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were moving around in various places performing a number of duties, isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, as you were walking back and forth through various rooms that you had to walk to some of those rooms that you were walking in were as many as six or seven car lengths from where you eventually were when you made the observation you did?

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. What difference does it make what she did

Page 29.

Cross-Dr. Cudemo

earlier in the morning?

THE COURT: Concentrate and phrase your questions so it is to that period.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. I am talking about the time period of where you were before you made that observation. Right before, if you can remember?

A. (Pause) I can't remember exactly. Somewhere in the emergency room Crisis Center or Trauma room. Something like that.

Q. Okay. Now, the Crisis Center and Trauma room isn't that some distance from where you were making that observation?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that one of your primary duties, to go back and forth in that area to make sure that area was covered or taken care of?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you doing that immediately before and after you made that observation?

A. Yes.

Q. And isn't it a fact that your primary duty at that time was not to be there, or be on guard, or

Page 30.

Cross-Dr. Cudemo

be in anyway present in that particular area, the emergency room waiting area, isn't that true?

A. That is true.

Q. And basically, as I understand your testimony, you didn't really see anybody do anything, is that correct?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. She already described what she saw.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Answer the question, please? Other than what you told us.

A. Repeat the question?

Q. You didn't see anybody kick, strike, beat, hit, yell at or do anything to that individual who was the Defendant at that particular moment, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Q. And you didn't see anything after that with that particular Defendant as far as observing anything at all?

A. No, I did not.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you very much.

MR. JACKSON: I have a few more.

Page 31.

Redirect-Dr. Cudemo

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DOCTOR CUDEMO-REDIRECT EXAMINATION

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BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You are an authorized psychiatric resident, or you were at that time, is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. So, you are not violating, or you were not violating any rules or regulations by being in the emergency room, would you?

A. No.

MR. MCGILL: Room or lobby waiting area.

MR. JACKSON: Either one of those areas.

THE WITNESS: No.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much.

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DOCTOR CUDEMO-RECROSS-EXAMINATION

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BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Doctor, did you see anything at all about what that individual was doing before you made that

Page 32.

Recross-Dr. Cudemo

observation?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Do you know what he did after you made that observation?

A. No, I do not.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions. Thank you.

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(WITNESS EXCUSED)

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MR. JACKSON: May I have a moment to see if the witness is outside, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

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(At this time Mr. Jackson left the courtroom and returned.)

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MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, the defense would call Detective William Thomas the assigned detective.

Page 33.

Direct-Detective Thomas

DETECTIVE WILLIAM THOMAS, badge number 744, Homicide Division, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DETECTIVE THOMAS-DIRECT EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective, how long have you been employed by the Philadelphia Police Department?

A. Approximately fifteen years.

Q. How long have you been a detective, sir?

A. About four years.

Q. Detective, on 12/9/81 did you become the assigned detective to the homicide of Officer Daniel Faulkner?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Could you describe for the jury, generally speaking, what an assigned detective, or assigned officer does; what responsibilities that person has?

A. Basically the assigned detective is responsible for the complete investigation. However, I am supervised at all times by a sergeant and lieutenant. It is my particular duties in a case such as this to possibly be the hub of a wheel in

Page 34.

Direct-Detective Thomas

that all the spokes must come to me and I must bring the wheel into fruition.

Q. Now, were you supervised in this case by another sergeant, lieutenant, or some commanding officer?

A. During this Investigation I received assistance and supervision from numerous --- well, from my sergeant, Herbert Gibbons as well as several lieutenants and what have you from the Homicide Division.

Q. Would it be fair to say you had more assistance and supervision in this case than any you had in your experience?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Detective, as the assigned detective would it be your responsibility to determine what investigation should or should not take place?

A. In some course of the matter there will be some things that have to be done and some detectives who maybe present or a supervisor maybe present when I am not present at times and would have to make decisions without conferring with me.

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, excuse me. May I make an objection and ask for a fast sidebar for an offer? I believe I know the

Page 35.

Direct-Detective Thomas

offer, but I want to be sure.

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(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

MR. JACKSON: The offer is that he is the assigned detective and he had the responsibility for requesting or making any of those tests that I talked about before. The Trace Metal Detection Test and the Neutron Activation Test. If it was his responsibility to follow or coordinate all these tests and I also want to ask him what relationship, if any, Mr. McGilton had to the investigation in terms of whether he was a supervisor or assisting in things of that sort.

MR. MCGILL: I want to make sure that we don't get into the area that we determined yesterday in camera would not be gotten into.

MR. JACKSON: I am just talking about all leads. If he says that is a lead, fine. I am talking about all leads. I am not asking any particular question.

Page 36.

Direct-Detective Thomas

MR. MCGILL: Let me ask you again. What is the question that you are going to ask in reference to leads?

MR. JACKSON: Is it his responsibility for coordinating or pursuing leads, investigation or assigning someone, or whatever.

MR. MCGILL: You are not going to get into ---

MR. JACKSON: (Interposing) I have alleged previously that these various tests that were suppose to be performed weren't performed for whatever reason. I want to find out whose responsibility that is. I cannot tell you every question until I hear what is said.

MR. MCGILL: Well, if you get into the area of what we did yesterday, Your Honor already ordered that that cannot be gotten into.

MR. JACKSON: I am not going into that.

MR. MCGILL: Okay. That is enough.

Page 37.

Direct-Detective Thomas

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, who was responsible, or whose responsibility would it be --- I know you have indicated that depending on who was working some responsibility might be assumed by other supervisors, or other brother officers who maybe present, but primarily as the assigned detective would it not be your responsibility to pursue or either delegate the responsibility to someone to pursue leads or information that is needed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as such would you make those determinations independent of your supervisor?

A. Yes, I would make them. Yes.

Q. Now, when were you assigned this case?

A. In the Homicide Division we have what is considered a wheel. Each person takes a turn. You do not know --- well, you know when you come in who is up for the next job. On that particular date, December

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9th, I was up for the next job no matter what the job would have been. It turned out to be this particular job.

Q. What time did you receive this job?

A. We were notified by police radio immediately that the incident had occurred and I already knew I was up for the next job. So, I just got up to go.

Q. Did you go to the scene?

A. I started out to the scene and I put my coat on to go out on the scene and before I could get out of my office radio phoned back again and said they had been ---

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Objection, Your Honor, as to any hearsay. What he did would only be admissible.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You did not go to the scene in other words?

A. No, sir.

Q. In fact, you remained at police headquarters?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the Homicide Unit?

A. (Pause) Not for the whole night. No, sir.

Q. Were there other detectives sent or dispatched

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to the scene?

A. Yes, sir, there were.

Q. How many?

A. I believe Detective James Morton and Detective William Cogan went to the scene. The division detective may have also went to the scene. I don't know.

Q. Now, you indicate that you are responsible for determining what investigations will take place pertaining to this case, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, some decisions maybe made by other people that you should do this and you should do that as well, I mean additional things, is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. If you made the decision to pursue an investigation could you be countermanded by a supervising officer?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Not relevant.

MR. JACKSON: I want to find out the chain of command, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go-ahead.

BY MR. JACKSON:

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Direct-Detective Thomas

Q. Do you understand the question?

A. Repeat the question again?

Q. If you had determined to pursue an investigation or pursue a lead, could you be countermanded by your supervisor, or anyone else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Once you made a decision to do something it would be done?

A. Yes. Unless my supervisor could give me concrete grounds why not to do it.

Q. Now, were any of your requests for investigations denied?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Be more specific.

MR. JACKSON: I can't be any more specific. That is why I am asking.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. It is involving hearsay. What did he do and what he didn't do.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you make a request at anytime during the investigation of this case for an investigation to be performed by someone, or by yourself, after which a

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supervisor, or someone, denied you permission or the authority to do it?

A. No, sir. I don't think I was denied anything during this investigation.

I was given most of the help I needed comparable to the man power and what have you, as much as a couple of other cases that I had that were on this scope. I think I was given fairly good cooperation.

You have to understand that even though this is a large case I still have to work on other cases that are important to those people, as well as this is important to these people.

Q. I understand. And you have been a homicide detective for how long?

A. I have been a homicide detective since roughly around December of 1980.

Q. So, at the time you were a homicide detective for approximately one year?

A. That is correct.

Q. And did you receive any special training when you came from one detective division to the Homicide Division? Did you receive any special training or

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instruction?

A. The Homicide Division does things in the minutest detail. Every bit of information in the investigation must be checked out. This is what makes homicide somewhat different than maybe your local divisions in that we cannot leave any stones unturned.

Q. That would be your responsibility to make sure that each stone is overturned, is that right?

A. It would be each and every member of our unit, or the Police Department to do that, sir.

Q. Well, the only way each and every member of the Police Department would know is if you as the assigned detective made it known?

I am sure the entire seventy-five hundred man police force didn't know what stones to overturn. I am not criticizing anyone, but do you understand what I am saying?

A. I understand what you are saying. That is true.

Q. Now, as far as you know was, in fact, every stone overturned in this case?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You have to me more

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specific.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You indicated it is your responsibility, particularly in the Homicide Division, that the minutest details must be pursued and that is what you are to do in homicide, is that right?

A. As a detective I am suppose to find out what happened.

Q. Yes, sir.

A. And I try to do that the best I could.

Q. And did you do that in this case, sir?

A. I believe I did, sir.

Q. Detective Thomas, are you familiar with the Trace Metal Detection Test?

A. Somewhat. I am not an expert on it.

Q. I understand that. Did you request one, sir, in this case?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with the Neutron Activation Test?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you request that in this case?

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A. No, sir.

Q. Before going on, Detective, isn't it a fact that your decisions to request or not request certain tests, or certain investigations, is based on the information that is given to you by brother officers, or from your own personal observations?

A. That is correct. Yes.

Q. So, would it be fair to say that you did not request the Trace Metal Detection Test of either the Defendant or his brother, or Officer Faulkner; thought it wasn't necessary; that you knew what happened?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why was it not done, sir?

A. In the case of Mr. Jamal here he was in Jefferson Hospital and all with his wounds and what have you. One of the first things I believe you do when you come in is to scrub them and, also, he was not conducive to cooperating to treatment. And ---

Q. (Interposing) Were you there, sir?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. May he answer?

MR. JACKSON: He is giving hearsay information.

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MR. MCGILL: He has asked hearsay in about half of his questions. When he gives an answer he doesn't like he interrupts.

THE COURT: Let him answer the question.

MR. JACKSON: I don't have any problems with that.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Tell us what they usually do at Jefferson Hospital?

A. I was at Jefferson Hospital.

Q. Can you tell us what they usually do?

A. With his wounds and what have you, his life was in jeopardy and there is no test in the world I am going to take on anybody that may risk their life.

Q. I understand that. Do you understand that the Trace Metal Detection Test is effective for thirty-six to forty-eight hours?

A. Counselor, as I said, I am not an expert on those matters. If I did not do it at first during the first course of the investigation before the Defendant

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was arraigned then I would not have had a chance to do it again.

Q. Why? You went off duty?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

A. No, sir.

MR. MCGILL: I think this is very unfair about thirty-six hours, because circumstances obviously change.

THE COURT: I will let you go into that.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, Mr. Jamal was in custody, was he not?

A. Mr. Jamal was in custody In the ICU Unit of Jefferson Hospital.

Q. Now, you suggested that because Jefferson Hospital, and I suspect other hospitals as well, that they usually wash the patients' hands, is that right?

A. Normally in this particular case when I observed Mr. Jamal he was up in the ICU. I don't know what floor it is, counselor. When I observed him and all he did have one arm free and trying to hold onto his stomach and they were trying to get him to agree to

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treatment. He had not agreed to treatment and all. I could not get in the way of these doctors treating this man to do any type of test, it is just not feasible that I am going to try to do a test and risk this man's life.

Q. I understand that. How long were they treating him, approximately?

A. Counselor, I can't say. I did not stay all night long at the hospital.

Q. When you left the hospital they were still treating him?

A. They were more like trying to get him to agree to treatment than treating him. There was certain things they wished to do that they needed his cooperation, or his signature to do, and this is what they were trying to do.

Q. But my question is --- I understand that you are saying at the time that you entered the hospital you did not attempt to have these tests conducted, because you were concerned about his life. I understand that.

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However, at some point in time his condition was stabilized and you were notified of that, is that right?

A. (Pause) I was made aware. I would check on his condition each day.

Q. Now, even though you believe they always wash their hands in the hospital isn't it a fact that there is a booklet, and I suppose you have more experience than I do, called "The Trace Metal Detection Technique In Law Enforcement" published by the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice, United States Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, and it says, in fact, that even if your hands were washed the Trace Metal Detection Test would be effective thirty-six to forty-eight hours afterwards nevertheless?

MR. MCGILL: I would object.

THE COURT: If you are going to ask him that question you have to qualify him first. Rephrase your question.

MR. JACKSON: He doesn't have to qualify as an expert, Your Honor. He is

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a detective. He doesn't have to do the test.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the Trace Metal Detection Test that is used by a number of police departments across the country, do you realize that the test could be performed even after washing your hands thirty-six to forty-eight hours and still be effective?

MR. MCGILL: I object.

THE COURT: I will let him answer.

A. No, sir, I was not.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You weren't familiar with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, do you know the Trace Metal Detection Test is used to determine whether, in fact, and individual may have held a weapon? Do you know that?

A. Yes.

Q. Nevertheless, did you request that of William Cook?

A. No, sir.

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Direct-Detective Thomas

Q. Was he injured?

A. Very slightly.

Q. He wasn't in the hospital, though?

A. No, sir.

Q. In fact, you had him down, or he was down to the Homicide Unit of the Police Department, was he not?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you didn't request that from Officer, Faulkner either, is that right?

A. (Pause) To the best of my knowledge, no, I did not.

Q. Now, let's move onto the Neutron Activation Test. That test is performed, and correct me If I am wrong, generally speaking to determine whether, in fact, someone recently fired a weapon, is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, as the assigned detective responsible for investigation every piece of information, did you request, did you perform a Neutron Activation Test, or did you collect the materials required for a Neutron

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Activation Test from Mr. Jamal?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did you collect the materials required for the Neutron Activation Test from William Cook?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did you collect the information or request the information or evidence for the Neutron Activation Test of Officer Daniel Faulkner?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Was there any question in your mind as to whether or not Officer Faulkner fired his weapon?

A. (No response)

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor --- no objection.

THE WITNESS: Repeat the question?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Was there any question in your mind as to whether or not Officer Faulkner fired his weapon?

A. There was always questions, counselor, in this particular case dealing with the Neutron Activation Test. I had spoke with one of the people from the Mobile Crime Detection Unit who would be responsible for doing this and at that juncture they did not have

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any of the kits.

Q. They just didn't have any kit?

A. No.

Q. Do you know how much the kits cost?

A. I am not aware of how much they cost, or what the Police Department spends on them. It is mostly handled by the Mobile Crime Detection Unit.

Q. You did request it?

A. I attempted to have it done.

Q. Was it done?

A. There was no way to have it done.

Q. Do you know who it was you spoke to?

A. No. I believe I mentioned it to someone from the Mobile Crime Unit.

Q. Could It have been Officer Ray Land?

A. Most of the time when you direct to get something done from the Mobile Crime Unit you talk to the supervisor.

Q. So, as an investigator you understand there is always a question about everything that someone tells you, generally speaking?

A. Generally.

Q. And you requested this test and for the

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reasons that you have indicated it wasn't done?

A. That is correct.

Q. Was there some question in your mind as to whether or not Mr. Jamal had committed the shooting he is accused of?

MR. MCGILL: I object to this.

MR. JACKSON: He Is the investigator, Your Honor. Let me see you a minute, Your Honor.

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: The only reason I am concerned is you are asking him for his opinion, whether he thinks Mr. Jamal was the one who shot the Officer. He may very well say yes. I don't think it is his opinion that is important. What he did or what he didn't do is important.

MR. MCGILL: We are going into highly inadmissible evidence. That is why I was objecting. That is so irrelevant. My God.

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MR. JACKSON: This is what is relevant, Your Honor.

MR. MCGILL: He said, "Did you have any question in your mind that Officer Faulkner fired his weapon?" He stops and he says there is always a question. He is trying to get into inadmissible evidence.

MR. JACKSON: What I am attempting to do, Your Honor, is the very thing he just admitted, that there were tests that could be performed and weren't for whatever reason.

THE COURT: So what good is it? They weren't done. That is it.

MR. JACKSON: To show if the police and the prosecution are on the same side.

THE COURT: Let me say this, it is the responsibility of the district attorney to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that this Defendant committed the crime. Now, they do that by positive evidence and not by negative evidence. Not what they didn't do. The fact that they have done something that would hang your client is

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immaterial. They didn't do it. They have to rise or fall on what they actually did. Negative evidence is not really evidence. The fact somebody didn't do something and the fact they didn't put him on the ground and squeeze his arm and make him confess, whatever they didn't do, or didn't take these different tests, the fact remains they didn't do them and you can call that to their attention that they didn't do it, but still it is the responsibility of the Commonwealth to prove what they did.

MR. JACKSON: I just want to show what he did or didn't do.

THE COURT: He already told you.

MR. MCGILL: He is going into intent.

MR. JACKSON: I will rephrase the question.

MR. MCGILL: I would ask that we rule immediately? Particularly this area that he is going into. I will object and we can have a ruling.

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THE COURT: I am telling you now why he didn't do something is immaterial. He didn't do it and that is it.

MR. JACKSON: It seems to me there is a bias.

THE COURT: If you want to argue to the jury later on that they should have taken these steps that is fine. Who knows what those tests would have shown? It is highly speculative. They could have given the tests and the tests could have come out positive and then so what?

MR. JACKSON: Or negative.

THE COURT: Or negative. That still doesn't mean that these witnesses that the Commonwealth is putting forward cannot be believed by the jury. It is up to the jury.

MR. MCGILL: I object to what was in his mind.

THE COURT: My ruling is that you can bring out they didn't take such a test, but why they didn't take it that is really

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immaterial. I don't know why he didn't. As I told you before it is the Commonwealth's responsibility to prove the guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense doesn't have to do anything.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that.

THE COURT: You are arguing that they should have taken these things and maybe they should have. However, they didn't take them and we don't have the results. So, it is not relevant.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. It is irrelevant.

THE COURT: That is what I am saying.

MR. MCGILL: And inadmissible.

THE COURT: They didn't take the test. We don't know what the results would have been. It is highly speculative. You can argue that they should have taken the test and maybe they should have, but they didn't and that is all that counts.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, what I am trying to show, I think legitimately, is,

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to determine what responsibility he has as the assigned detective.

THE COURT: He told you. He told you that he didn't do these tests. Where are you going?

MR. JACKSON: There are only two tests I have to ask him about. We are at the end of that.

THE COURT: He said neither test was taken. He said one test wasn't taken because they didn't have the right kit or something. It was left at that. Okay. If that is sloppy police work then it is sloppy police work.

MR. JACKSON: That is all I wanted to show.

THE COURT: It is already here.

MR. MCGILL: You keep on ruling.

MR. JACKSON: You never let me finish my point. You are saying I am getting into opinions and feelings.

MR. MCGILL: That is right.

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MR. JACKSON: I am not trying to elicit that. No one pushes a button. He makes the decisions based on something.

MR. MCGILL: That is hearsay.

THE COURT: He made one decision not to do it. Whether it is the right decision or the wrong decision I don't care.

MR. JACKSON: Me either. That is all I wanted to get out.

THE COURT: He answered that already.

MR. JACKSON: That is all I am going to.

THE COURT: You are going into his explanation of why he did something.

MR. MCGILL: Reasons why.

MR. JACKSON: My questions may have suggested that. I don't want to do that. I will rephrase the question. It is not what I wanted to do.

THE COURT: What is the question?

MR. JACKSON: I forgot what the last question was.

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MR. MCGILL: "Did you have any question in your mind that Mr. Jamal was the person that shot the gun?"

MR. JACKSON: I will withdraw the question. It is probably a bad question for me anyway.

THE COURT: If I was on that stand I would have said there was no doubt in my mind at all.

MR. JACKSON: The issue is whether there was a question in his mind. That might have been a wrong choice of words. I am not trying to get into his subconscious in terms of carrying out his responsibilities.

THE COURT: He already told you that. He said he decided that under the circumstances of this case he would not order that test. You asked him whether or not he knew something and he said, "No, I didn't know about thirty-six hours." He probably doesn't. The point is he didn't take certain tests for whatever reason. We don't know what the results of those tests would have been if they had been

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taken.

What value is it? It is not really relevant except to show that he should have done something that he didn't do. That doesn't lessen the responsibility of the district attorney. He still has to prove this Defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt regardless of what he didn't do.

MR. MCGILL: Let's go.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, again, as the assigned detective you indicated something to the effect that you are the hub where all the other spokes converge, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It would be fair to say that you are familiar with the contents of all of the investigations, the statements and things of that sort?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. Now, we have had testimony and there were statements indicating that there were persons other than Mr. Jamal and his brother at the scene.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. Why don't you ask a question?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you pursue an investigation to locate and identify other persons who were at or near the scene of this incident on December the 9th, 1981?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And did you happen to locate any of them?

A. Yes. I believe I did.

Q. And you located other individuals?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have those names been provided to me, sir?

A. You have interviews.

Q. You have names of those persons? Have they been identified? Have those persons been identified?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: I am hearing this for the first time, Judge.

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MR. MCGILL: It is actually inaccurate. Mr. Jackson, don't say that in front of the jury. He has every piece of paper we have.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The individual that you spoke to, was that Dessie Hightower?

A. He was interviewed by one of the detectives from homicide.

Q. You know he indicated that a person ran from the scene?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Judge, this is hearsay upon hearsay.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, this man is the investigator.

THE COURT: I will let him answer the question. Go ahead and ask the question. Be specific in your question, though.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The man that Mr. Hightower said he saw running

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past the hotel on Locust Street, did you locate him?

MR. McGILL: Objection. That assumes there is one.

THE COURT: All right. Let him answer the question, please?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you locate him, sir?

A. I have been out to the scene, counselor, and I looked at that location. To the best of my knowledge the person he may have been describing would have been a female.

Q. Based on what, sir?

A. Based on what the person, when interviewed, related.

Q. He indicated on 12/9/81 that it was a man and we know from his statements here in court that he said it may have been a man or woman, but he did indicate the person was Jamaican because of the braids, or Rastafirian. The question is whether it is a man or woman.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. That is not what he said.

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MR. JACKSON: If I misquoted the witness I apologize.

MR. MCGILL: I object to the whole area as being irrelevant and inadmissible.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you ever find the man or woman that Mr. Hightower indicated?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Come over here a sidebar.

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: What is the basis of the objection?

MR. MCGILL: The basis of the objection sir, is that Mr. Jackson is bringing other individuals' testimony in by what they are suppose to have said at one time or another and asking him whether he located the person, which he is assuming there exists somebody. You are asking to get into his mind.

THE COURT: It is not into his mind.

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He asked him whether they ever found that person. He can answer yes or no.

MR. MCGILL: You open one big can of worms if you permit this to continue.

MR. JACKSON: He has given us what his responsibilities are. I am determining whether or not he fulfilled his responsibilities.

THE COURT: He tried to locate the person and he didn't.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that. I want to find out. It is not pursuant to his testimony. It is pursuant to the police statements. Mr. McGill may have a point with regard to bringing up the testimony and all of that, but I am saying as the assigned detective he knows about all the statements and he is responsible for pursuing all the leads, whatever they are, and he knows from those police statements what witnesses should be called and what not. If he would have said no in the beginning I wouldn't have been able to ask.

THE COURT: Let's go. Let's move

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forward.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Now, again, Detective, the man or woman described by Mr. Hightower did you find that individual?

A. I can't say that I found anyone that was described to me by Mr. Hightower. I interviewed and I attempted to interview, with the help of other homicide detectives, each and every person that we could locate who may have been anywhere in that area either during the shooting or shortly thereafter.

Q. Now, Cynthia White indicates she was talking to a man she knows at or about the time of this incident and she further indicated in the report, as well as her testimony, that the man was talking to someone who she believed to be a homicide detective. I am sorry. A homicide officer. I think she said Highway Patrol officer. Did you locate that individual?

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A. I cannot say that I located that individual.

A. A Veronica Jones Indicated that there were two men ---

MR. MCGILL: Objection, sir.

THE COURT: Who?

MR. JACKSON: It is in the statement.

MR. McGILL: He is going into a statement about something somebody was suppose to have said.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. That person hasn't even been here. I will sustain the objection.

MR. JACKSON: I will have to bring him back.

THE COURT: Then bring him back.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you locate and find any other individuals who were reported to be at the scene other than Mr. Jamal and his brother?

A. (Pause) No, sir.

Q. You said that you used the assistance of your brother officers in attempting to locate various people and interview various people?

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A. That is correct.

Q. Although you haven't located those individuals do you have some leads, some information that would suggest where those individuals might be?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Let him answer. You can bring it out in cross.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you understand the question?

A. I don't completely understand the question, counselor. I ask you to repeat it?

Q. Sure. The question is, although you have not located or interviewed any of these purported individuals that I have just asked you about, the question is do you have any information that would suggest where they might be?

MR. MCGILL: You are going to permit that?

THE COURT: If he can answer it, yes. Let's go.

A. I could not answer that, counselor, I could

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not say that I have or have not interviewed someone that someone else pointed to. I don't know whether I interviewed the particular person that maybe related to in somebody else's interview. I cannot say that. I can only say that we have interviewed each and every person who we could find that was anywhere in that vicinity when this thing occurred and shortly thereafter and I have tried to turn that matter over to you as quickly as I could.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Turned it over to me as quickly as you could?

A. Counselor, I believe you have personal knowledge that I have been to your office about five times.

MR. JACKSON: You sure have. May I have one moment, Your Honor?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, as a trained investigator with fifteen years in the Philadelphia Police Department and given the responsibility that you have for this case, are you satisfied, or have you satisfied yourself that you pursued all of the leads that have been provided to you with regard to the investigation of this case?

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A. I believe honestly, counselor, I have done everything that was in my power that I could do in this case.

Q. Now, many of the interviews or investigations conducted in this case were performed by other officers, or other detectives?

A. That is correct.

Q. And, in fact, on December the 9th, did you, in fact, take a statement from anybody?

A. I believe I talked to Mr. William Cook.

Q. Just one statement then, one person?

A. That is about all I can recall.

Q. So, those other statements that we have gotten on December the 9th were taken by other people?

A. That is correct.

Q. You secured a search and seizure warrant, did you not?

A. That is correct.

Q. When did you obtain a search and seizure warrant?

A. That warrant was obtained early in the morning, I believe, of --- it was obtained during my last out tour the next night. I didn't serve it, until

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after daylight on the lOth, I believe.

Q. And the search and seizure warrant subject matter was the taxicab?

A. Yes.

Q. The taxicab was parked where? Where was it located initially?

A. It was located on 13th, 13th Street on the west side of the street just north of Locust.

Q. Who brought to your attention the location of the cab?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You prepared an affidavit of probable cause for the search and seizure warrant?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Based on information you received?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Based on information that you received, when was the cab located at the location you just stated?

MR. MCGILL: Again objection.

THE COURT: I have to sustain the

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Direct-Detective Thomas

objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Where did you first come in contact with the taxicab?

A. 13th and Locust.

Q. You physically saw it there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And at the time that you saw it was it in police custody? When I say police custody, were the police there?

A. At the time I saw the cab the owner of the cab was there and he had been talking with a police officer.

Q. Before you arrived?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you ask the Mobile Crime Unit, or anyone else, to dust it for fingerprints, that is the taxicab?

A. I believe the only thing I may have asked was to have photos taken of the cab.

Q. Photos taken?

A. I may have asked to have photos taken of the cab, but that was never done. I am in Three Squad and I was working around the clock constantly and there was

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Direct-Detective Thomas

some type of communication problem in working with a different squad.

Q. So, photos of the cab were not taken?

A. No. Let me correct that and say that I had intended to have photos taken. I am not sure whether I ever called them or not to be honest with you, counselor.

Q. Did you ever intend to have the car dusted for fingerprints, either outside or inside?

A. No. Because the cab had not been under our complete control. So, fingerprints would not have been necessary. We had enough --- I received enough information as to who was in possession or had ownership of the vehicle.

Q. Someone told you that they, in fact, saw who was in the cab?

A. I had the owner of the cab present and he had conveyed to me who he had let have the cab.

Q. How much earlier than this incident?

MR. MCGILL: I object. We are getting into hearsay upon hearsay. If he wishes to call witnesses to testify that is

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Direct-Detective Thomas

all hearsay.

THE COURT: At this time I may have to sustain the objection.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. It is a fact that at or about 3:51 a.m. on December 9th, you and no one else in the Police Department, from the reports that have been submitted to you, know who was operating that cab, is that right?

A. At 3:51 a.m.?

Q. Approximately.

A. Yes.

Q. At about that time?

A. I think you would be correct.

Q. Nevertheless, no fingerprints were taken?

A. No.

Q. How about the contents of the cab, were any fingerprints taken there?

A. Off of the contents?

Q. Yes. Inside.

A. No, sir.

Q. But the contents inside indicated descriptions

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Direct-Detective Thomas

and materials belonging to Mumia Abu-Jamal, is that correct?

A. That is correct.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions at this time, Your Honor. Your Honor, may we see you at sidebar for a moment?

(At this time there was a sidebar discussion
with both counsel present off of the record.)

MR. JACKSON: May I just ask one more question, Your Honor?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, did you ever locate or identify a Highway Patrol officer who was at the scene of this shooting on the night it happened?

A. I have a Highway Patrol officer that arrived on that scene and he was interviewed and I believe the interview was turned over to you.

Q. Did that interview --- I don't know who the officer was, sir, but did that officer indicate that,

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Direct-Detective Thomas

in fact, he talked to the man in Cynthia White's statement?

MR. MCGILL: I am sorry. Could you repeat the question?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The question is, the Highway Patrol officer that you interviewed did he indicate whether, in fact, he talked to the man that Cynthia White said she was talking to?

A. I did not interview this Highway Patrol officer. I can't answer that, because I didn't interview him and, also, to the best of my knowledge he came on the scene, from his interview, well after all the parties had been removed to the hospital. He was assigned to the Expressway all the way up on I-95 somewhere.

Q. As a result of the interview did you locate and identify the man that was described by Cynthia White?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: I think he answered that.

MR. MCGILL: He didn't know the name or the contents of what was said.

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Direct-Detective Thomas

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Let me do it this way. You received or had the opportunity to review each and everyone of those interviews, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that you did see the interview of this Highway Patrol officer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what I am asking is, as a result of that statement of that Highway Patrol officer did you pursue or investigate, or locate or identify, or anyone of those things, any man as described by Cynthia White as to who she was talking to?

MR. MCGILL: I would have to object.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. Let me see you over here, counsel.

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: The reason I sustained the objection is because you are presupposing certain things. Now, what you can do is ask

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Direct-Detective Thomas

him for the names of any stakeout officer --- was it a stakeout officer? Who was it?

MR. JACKSON: Maybe you can tell, us.

MR. MCGILL: I don't even know myself.

MR. JACKSON: I don't know.

MR. MCGILL: You can call him back later. Getting this in front of the jury it looks like I am hiding something.

THE COURT: It is not fair.

MR. MCGILL: That is the point. He is saying we don't know what the interview was and what was said and whether he said anything about a witness.

THE COURT: He can't go through all that.

MR. MCGILL: He may have to go through it now to find out who it is. I am objecting because it places me --- well, we are dealing with hearsay and speculation.

THE COURT: What you should do is before the man goes on to find out if there were any Highway Patrol officers, get their

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Direct-Detective Thomas

names and you can interview them and find out if they talked to somebody. How is he going to know whether somebody talked to somebody?

MR. JACKSON: The only reason I asked him was because ---

THE COURT: (Interposing) The only reason it is wrong is because don't forget Cynthia White never told this to anybody before the time she took the stand.

MR. JACKSON: Yes she did.

THE COURT: You were surprised.

MR. MCGILL: She is going to be the witness coming in next.

THE COURT: She already testified she doesn't know the guy.

MR. JACKSON: She previously testified to that. That is where I got it from, the previous testimony.

MR. MCGILL: It has nothing to do with this.

THE COURT: She does not know the name of the man she was talking to. Now, he doesn't know the name of

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Direct-Detective Thomas

the officer, or what the officer looked like that supposedly was there. How is he suppose to answer that question? He can't answer that.

MR. JACKSON: Maybe I can find out if she knows who the Highway Patrol officer is.

MR. MCGILL: I want to know if I can have fast rulings on the hearsay objections and if they are sustained to leave it at that? Because I have to go through this interview so it doesn't make it seem like I am hiding something.

MR. JACKSON: I just didn't know his name.

MR. MCGILL: You are asking as a result of what he said did you interview anybody else.

MR. JACKSON: No. I understand your objection. I am not trying to say that he didn't do it. I am trying to find out who the man is.

MR. MCGILL: It is all hearsay.

- - -

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Direct-Detective Thomas

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, do you know the name of the Highway Patrol officer?

A. I looked it up. It was Police Officer Vernon Jones, badge number 4758 assigned to the Highway Patrol.

(At this time both counsel conferred off of the record.)

MR. MCGILL: May we approach the witness?

THE COURT: No. We better not. Unless you want to see me at sidebar and let me know what you are doing?

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Where are we going now?

MR. MCGILL: I don't know. I want to take a look at the interview.

MR. JACKSON: I want to see if there

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Direct-Detective Thomas

is a statement in the interview. That is why we wanted to approach him.

THE COURT: Why don't you ask him to look?

MR. JACKSON: I was going to.

MR. MCGILL: It is hearsay. The whole thing is hearsay.

THE COURT: Bring Jones in.

MR. JACKSON: I didn't want to bring him in if he didn't give a statement.

THE COURT: Maybe he has to bring him in now. I think you are going to have to bring him in anyway for either rebuttal or something.

MR. JACKSON: I don't have the statements. That is my problem.

MR. MCGILL: Judge, is Your Honor going to permit further questions?

THE COURT: Where are we going? I don't know.

MR. JACKSON: I am done with him.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion

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Direct-Detective Thomas

was concluded and the following is in open court.)

MR. JACKSON: No further questions at this time.

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, may I proceed? I will not be too long.

THE COURT: How long are you going to be?

MR. MCGILL: Ten minutes, Judge.

- - -

DETECTIVE THOMAS-CROSS-EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Detective Thomas, you were asked about your various duties involved in this investigation. Do you recall that, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It is true that you have worked almost close to six months and many times with me in reference to this investigation, have you not?

A. That is correct.

Q. And would you say you are most familiar as to the contents of this particular investigation, sir?

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Cross-Detective Thomas

A. That is correct.

Q. That book In front of you contains somewhere near fifty interviews alone, does it not?

A. That is correct.

Q. Along with scientific reports and various data from all areas of the Police Department and related agencies, isn't that correct?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Would you say that in terms of your particular investigation, the investigation that you have conducted almost daily for a six month period, is as reasonably a complete investigation as you could possibly do?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Are you satisfied, sir, in reference to your investigation, interviews, and anything you have done in connection with this particular case, are you satisfied with the results of your investigation?

A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. All of those statements that you see before you there, as well as a hundred and twenty other statements from another department, all of those were individually, by you as a matter of fact, given to this defense counsel, is that correct?

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Cross-Detective Thomas

A. That is correct. In fact, the hundred and twenty was given to counsel and to the district attorney, but they were not given to me.

Q. And that was separate than those there?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, also, Detective Thomas, in reference to the individual you mentioned, something about what Mr. Hightower had said about somebody running, if, in fact, there was anyone that he had seen you said that you thought based upon your view and your going out to the scene it may have been a woman, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were referring, were you not, to Veronica Jones, is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you had an interview of Veronica Jones which were among those interviews which were given to defense counsel, is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you not arrange at my request that Miss Jones be present today if counsel wished to talk to her, or whatever he wishes to do?

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Cross-Detective Thomas

A. Yes. Before coming to court I did arrange that.

Q. And did you not in reference to your particular investigation in reference to her statement determine that the only reason why you felt that Veronica Jones may have been the person, if in fact he saw anyone, is because she would have been the only person standing there at approximately that time?

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. Unless this officer was present how could he say that, Judge?

MR. McGill: It was brought out by you.

THE COURT: Just a minute. Rephrase your question.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Why did you say you thought it would be her?

MR. JACKSON: Objection.

THE COURT: I didn't hear the question.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Why did you say that you thought it might be her in response to his question?

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Cross-Detective Thomas

MR. JACKSON: I object to it because it is speculation.

THE COURT: I will allow him to answer the question.

A. It was brought out in Mr. Hightower's interview that he had observed a person running down near the hotel on Locust Street. In canvassing that area we came up with numerous people and I was led to Miss Veronica Jones. She was interviewed and in turn related that she had, in fact, been at 12th and Locust and in hearing the shooting she had walked up the street to I believe it is a little restaurant about a block away, at Camac and Locust, which is right near the hotel.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Would that be Polly's?

A. Yes. Polly's.

Q. Is that the reason that you thought that may have been the person that he saw?

A. She also relates to seeing two men jog across the street, which I felt could have possibly been Mr. Hightower and another person.

Q. Also Mr. Pickford?

A. That is correct.

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Cross-Detective Thomas

Q. Now, Detective Thomas, in terms of reference to the cab that you spoke about with the material in it with the Defendant's name on it, was that parked south or north on 13th Street, or near 13th and Locust?

A. It was parked north of Locust Street on the west side of the street. I think it is just past the door of Whispers. This is Locust Street. The cab was parked I believe right here, about in here, on this side of the street over here.

Q. You are indicating above where the twenty-six feet is?

A. Somewhere right in this vicinity.

Q. Now, would it be parked on the right side or left side?

A. It would be on the right side of the street, on the west side of the street.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you, Detective. Nothing further.

MR.JACKSON: I have a few questions.

DETECTIVE THOMAS-REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Page 90.

Redirect-Detective Thomas

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Detective Thomas, you said that you assumed or speculated that Veronica Jones was the person that Mr. Hightower said he saw, is that correct?

A. Anyone or anything that has been brought out in anyone's interview it is my job to substantiate who it was, or what it was, and how it came to be there and I made this attempt as best I could.

Q. But Veronica Jones never told you she was at the hotel, did she?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Really.

MR. JACKSON: You brought it up.

MR. MCGILL: I will withdraw my objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. My question is, Veronica Jones never told you she was at that hotel, did she?

A. From the point she said she was when she heard the shot was at 12th Street near the Speedline. Up to Polly's is approximately eleven or twelve building doors to Camac Street. When you cross the street the hotel sign is right above your head. I believe you can see the hotel sign.

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Redirect-Detective Thomas

Q. My question again is, she never told you she was at the hotel, did she?

A. No, sir. She just described to me what she did and where she was. I can't put words in her mouth.

Q. She didn't say she was at the hotel?

A. No, sir.

Q. And you have also gotten a description of the man, or at least the color of the clothing. Did you ask her what she was wearing that evening?

A. I did not question Miss Jones.

Q. Okay. You simply assumed that that must have been the person when, in fact, you know there was someone else along with Veronica Jones?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: We will bring in Miss Jones.

MR. MCGILL: I object to any further hearsay upon hearsay upon hearsay. I object to it all.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. In any event, you then said that Veronica Jones said she saw ---

MR. JACKSON: Well, we are going to

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Redirect-Detective Thomas

have her here. No further questions.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you, Detective.

- - -

(WITNESS EXCUSED)

- - -

THE COURT: We will take a luncheon recess at this time.

- - -

(At this time court was recessed for lunch at 12:50 p.m.)

- - -

(The following is a discussion in chambers with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Let the record indicate that we are here in chambers. Give us your name?

MR. ROSIN: David Rosin of the Public Defenders Office.

THE COURT: And you represent whom?

MR. ROSIN: Veronica Jones. Louise Tatum.

THE COURT: Mr. Jackson wants to call

Page 93.

your client as a witness in this case. Could you tell him why you are calling her?

MR. JACKSON: Sure. Essentially, she was interviewed by the police sometime after December the 9th with regard to the shooting of Officer Faulkner. She indicates she saw two people jogging away from at or about the scene of the shooting. I simply wanted to get her on the stand and say that. He is going to get the statement. I don't know anything more than what is in the statement and I guess it would be just to confirm what she has in the statement. I am not going to ask her --- well, I may ask her what she was doing down there. It maybe obvious what she was doing down there.

MR. MCGILL: Here is her statement.

(The district attorney just gave the public defender the statement.)

MR. ROSIN: I have spoken to my client and I have seen her statement. I see no Fifth Amendment problem with her in

Page 94.

testifying to what she saw.

MR. JACKSON: Very good.

MR. ROSIN: Will you need me?

THE COURT: No. If it gets anywhere near the Fifth Amendment I will call you. I don't see any Fifth Amendment problem either.

- - -

(At this time the discussion in chambers was concluded.)

- - -

(Court was reconvened at 3:05 p.m.)

- - -

(JURY PRESENT)

- - -

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I proceed?

The defense would call Veronica Jones.

- - -

VERONICA JONES, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

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Direct-V. Jones

VERONICA JONES-DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Good afternoon, Miss Jones. Miss Jones, I want to direct your attention to December 9th, 1981 at about 3:50 a.m. Do you recall that date?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell us where you were at about 3:50 a.m.?

A. I just came from South Philly. I was on 12th and Locust.

Q. You have to speak louder.

A. I have a cold. Excuse me.

Q. You just came from South Philadelphia and where were you again at that time at about 3:50 a.m.?

A. Standing by the Speedline at 12th and Locust.

Q. Do you know what corner that was on, whether it was the northwest corner, or what?

A. Coming from the direction of 13th and Locust on the left-hand side. Coming from the direction of 13th and Locust. This is on the left-hand side.

Q. Let's see if this diagram might help us some. This is Locust. Here is Camac

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Direct-V. Jones

Street and 12th Street would be approximately here. Forgive me for being in your way. It would be on this corner here? The northeast corner of --- the northwest corner of 12th and Locust Street?

A. Yes.

Q. With whom were you standing? You were standing on the corner, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And who were you standing on the corner with?

A. I don't know his name. A young black man. I don't know his name.

Q. Was this the first time you met him?

A. Yes.

Q. He just came up to you when you came to the corner?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you talk to him?

A. We talked for awhile.

Q. When you say "awhile" could you tell me?

A. I can't say. Maybe a half hour or more.

Q. Now, we are not going into the shooting yet,

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Direct-V. Jones

but he left you before the shooting?

A. No.

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, I object to leading the witness. It is counsel's witness.

THE COURT: Just ask the questions.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you remember what he looked like?

A. He was tall. Slim. Late twenty's.

Q. Do you know what he was wearing?

A. Jeans. I don't know what else.

Q. Do you know what kind of top? Was it a jacket or sweater?

A. No.

Q. Do you know if it was dark or light?

A. Dark.

Q. Any other bright colors in it?

A. No.

Q. What kind of hair?

A. Muslim cut.

Q. Now, you talked to him for about a half hour?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, at some point in time did you hear

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Direct-V. Jones

gunshots?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you hear some noise?

A. Yes.

Q. At the time that you heard the noise where were you?

A. I can't say. I was directly on the corner, but If the Speedline is here I was like a little behind the building that was on the corner.

Q. On 12th Street side?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. So it would be fair --- well, after hearing the shots what, if anything, did you then do?

A. I just came around the corner and looked.

Q. And what did you see?

A. All I seen was two men and a policeman. I seen a policeman on the ground and --- what else can say? I was kind of intoxicated. They knew that.

Q. Who knew that?

A. The policeman that I talked to. When they came to my house.

Q. When did they come to your house?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. I can't say.

Q. Was it more than a week after this incident?

A. Yes.

Q. How was it they contacted you, do you know?

A. I don't know. Someone gave them my name and address and they were at my house in Jersey.

Q. Now, did you see anyone running away from the scene?

A. Running away?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Jogging?

MR. MCGILL: Leading.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. What, If anything, did you see anyone do when you turned around and looked up Locust Street?

A. I didn't see anyone do nothing. No one moved.

Q. No one moved at all?

A. Not that I seen, no.

Q. You didn't see anyone jogging?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may we

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Direct-V. Jones

see you at sidebar?

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: This is your witness.

MR. MCGILL: This is incredible, Judge. If you can't get it out of the witness he then says give me a statement.

MR. JACKSON: I am now going to plead surprise, because now she is claiming nobody moved and he knows from the statement what she said.

THE COURT: He pleads surprise.

MR. JACKSON: I am going to cross-examine her.

THE COURT: Don't get excited. He said he is pleading surprise because she is now saying something different than what is in the statement. What is your position on that?

MR. MCGILL: Are you telling me you never talked to her?

MR. JACKSON: I never talked to her.

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Direct-V. Jones

MR. MCGILL: Or anybody in your office?

MR. JACKSON: No. Never.

MR. MCGILL: I have no objection if he uses the statement. The degree of cross-examination should be limited to what she saw.

THE COURT: Of course to what she saw.

MR. MCGILL: It doesn't mean he cross-examines her for the next two hours.

THE COURT: Oh, no.

MR. JACKSON: The time limit is the subject matter. If it takes two hours or two minutes.

MR. MCGILL: Let's get going. I don't believe this.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the police

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Direct-V. Jones

on December 15th, 1981?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember talking to either Detective Bennett or Detective Harmon?

A. It was three detectives at my house.

Q. They came to your house over in Jersey, is that right?

A. Yes. They were there when I got home.

Q. Now, you are telling us today that you didn't see the men move at all?

A. I didn't say I seen anyone running.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Please take a moment to review this statement? Raise your hand when you had an opportunity to review it.

A. (Pause) That is my signature, but the way they have the statement I did not say this, because I do not know anyone by the name of Candy.

Q. Just a minute. I want you to read each page in the interview if you can. I want you to review the entire statement and then we will talk about

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Direct-V. Jones

it.

Now, have you had the opportunity to review that statement?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Does your signature appear on each of the sheets?

A. That is my signature. Yes, it is.

Q. At the time that you placed your signature on these sheets did you indicate to the police that the statement was true?

A. The policeman wasn't writing anything when I was talking to him.

Q. When did he ask you to sign it?

A. He asked me to sign one piece of paper. One piece of paper.

Q. Is that your signature appearing on one, two, three, four, five?

A. All of them.

Q. Five sheets?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. You signed each one of them?

A. I signed one.

Q. How did your signature get on five sheets?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. My mother is a witness. I signed one piece of paper. They had a conversation with me in my mother's house.

Q. Can you tell me which one of these sheets you did sign?

A. No, I can't. It was a paper just like that, but there were no words on it. He was sitting there talking to me. The black man.

Q. There were no words on the sheet at all?

A. He wasn't writing anything. He was making a diagram.

Q. And you just signed a blank piece of paper?

A. Yes, I did. My mother was in the kitchen at the time we were talking and he was asking me about Charlie Smith. I know that much.

Q. Who?

A. Charlie Smith. He runs the trash company. He asked me about that, but that is not the way our conversation went.

Q. What does Charlie Smith have to do with it?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: May I see you a minute at sidebar?

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Direct-V. Jones

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Let me say something. Could it be she is talking about her earlier arrest?

MR. MCGILL: No.

MR. JACKSON: Charles Smith runs a trash company. I will withdraw the question, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

MR. JACKSON: I will withdraw the question with regard to Charles Smith at this point.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Let me ask you if you remember this question and answer.

Veronica, would you go on in your

Page 106.

Direct-V. Jones

own words and tell me what you know about the shooting death of Officer Daniel Faulkner?

Answer: I was in a little restaurant called Rocky's. It is on Chancellor Street. We were drinking beer. We came out of the restaurant and went down the alley towards 12th Street. We went down 12th Street and crossed Locust Street. We joked around on the corner for awhile.

We talked around by the entrance to the High Speedline and she (Candy) started talking to someone in a car and I walked back around the corner to Locust Street.

As I was walking away from the High Speedline entrance I heard firing. I heard three shots. I looked down Locust Street towards Johnny Dee's and I saw a policeman fall down. After I saw the policeman fall I saw two black guys walk across Locust Street and then they started sort of jogging.

The next thing I saw was a wagon coming. There was one other black guy standing by the entrance of the Speedline by Johnny Dee's.

Do you remember that question and answer?

Page 107.

Direct-V. Jones

A. I remember the question. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that answer?

A. About Rocky's, he asked me was there anyone else in the area. I told him there were people in Rocky's, but I was not drinking in Rocky's.

Q. So, you are saying that this answer that you have here is wrong?

A. The way they have it, yes.

Q. You didn't say what they put here?

A. No.

Q. And you are saying although one police officer was asking the questions there were two others present?

A. Three detectives. One from Camden and I think two from Philadelphia.

Q. Okay. See if you remember this question and answer.

This is the question on page three.

After the policeman fell down did you hear any more shooting?

Answer: I was calling Candy telling him to come here, but I don't think I did.

Do you remember that question and answer?

Page 108.

Direct-V. Jones

A. Did I hear more gunshots, I told him no.

Q. Do you know Candy?

A. No. I was talking to a man on the corner.

Q. So, Candy is not a man?

A. The man I was talking to was not a woman, no.

Q. But is the man named Candy?

A. No.

Q. You are certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the man's name?

A. It wasn't Candy.

Q. What is his name?

A. I don't know who it was. I don't know what his name was.

Q. Do you know his name wasn't Candy?

A. Let me put it this way, I am a hooker. I don't know nobody's name.

MR. MCGILL: Objection to relevancy. The whole area is irrelevant.

MR. JACKSON:

Q. So, the police made this up?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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Direct-V. Jones

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Next question on the same page.

Do you know Candy's full name?

Answer: She uses Candy and Sebrina. I don't know her real name.

Do you recall, that question and answer?

A. No.

Q. Who else was out there that night that may have seen the shooting?

Answer: I think one of the guys that pick-up trash for Charlie Smith's.

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I have to sustain the objection.

MR. MCGILL: It is hearsay upon hearsay.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. By the way, so I understand you clearly you are saying that you never saw two men walk across Locust Street, or jog?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. When you saw two men at Locust Street ---

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did you see two men on Locust Street?

A. There was two men where the policeman was at. A man by the soda machine. A soda machine on 13th Street. Almost, you know, near the Speedline entrance.

Q. Would that be on the same corner as Johnny Dee's?

A. No. It is the opposite corner.

MR. JACKSON: Can I have the diagram please?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Johnny Dee's is right here, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you are saying there were two men and somebody at the soda machine over here?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. And who was there?

A. One man there.

Q. One man?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the two men that you said that you saw on Locust Street doing nothing where were they?

A. (No response)

Q. Do you want to use this?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. No. Right in here.

Q. And what did those two men look like?

A. I can't say what they looked like.

Q. Were they black men?

A. They were black men, but I can't say what they looked like.

Q. Can you tell us how tall they were?

A. No, I can't.

Q. Did they have Dreadlock hair styles?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. I would only remind the court that this is his witness.

MR. JACKSON: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Just ask the questions and let her answer.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did they have Dreadlocks?

A. I can't say. Like I told my public defender I was too far to say they had Dreadlocks.

Q. Did you see what kind of clothing they had on?

A. No, sir, I can't.

Q. See if you remember this question and

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answer?

Again, this is the statement taken on 12/15/81. at 9:45 p.m. This is on page five.

MR. MCGILL: I keep on objecting.

MR. JACKSON: It is the issue that Your Honor ruled on.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Look at it and see if it is?

MR. MCGILL: Go-ahead and ask her.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How close did the two men who jogged across Locust Street get to the fallen officer?

Answer: Not close enough. Maybe two or three steps away.

Do you remember that question and answer?

A. No. I never told him about they jogged across Locust Street.

Q. See If you remember this question and answer?

How much time went by between the time you saw the officer fall and the time you saw the two men jog across the street?

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Answer: About a minute.

I had walked up near Polly's by then.

Do you remember that question and answer?

A. No, sir.

Q. You are saying that these one, two, three, four, five sheets of paper containing your name --- it is your signature, meaning you did write your name?

A. Yes, sir, I did. He had a tablet and I signed my name.

Q. But it is my understanding that you only signed your name one time?

A. I did.

Q. Can you account for your signature being here five times?

A. No, sir, I can't.

Q. Not at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you are saying that your mother was present at the time of this interview?

A. Yes. She was standing in the kitchen doorway.

Q. In the doorway for the entire time?

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A. Not really, because she was watching my kids while I was talking.

Q. How long did the interview last?

A. They might have been there for awhile, but I think about a half hour. Maybe an hour.

Q. Now, let me ask you this. We have dispensed with the statement now.

Back to what you remember right now. You are saying when you looked up Locust Street you just saw two men standing there near where the officer was shot?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, did you then see then do, if anything at all?

A. I can't say I seen then doing anything. Like I say, I had been drinking.

Q. What did you then do?

A. I left.

Q. You just left the scene?

A. It was too many police cars and hookers do not stand in the area where there is too many police cars.

Q. That is reasonable.

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Did you walk up Locust Street?

A. No, sir. I walked down 12th Street past the Gay Restaurant.

Q. Polly's is where?

A. Polly's, that is the restaurant where they read tea leaves. That is on Locust Street.

Q. That is on what?

A. Locust and Camac.

Q. So, Camac is between 12th and 13th, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. You are saying you never went past there?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. What about the hotel that is in the same block between 12th and 13th ---

MR. JACKSON: Maybe I should point out for the jury as well Camac Street. This is 13th Street and this is Locust and this is Camac Street. 12th Street would be over here.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Is that right?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. And where would Polly's be?

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Would that be on this side?

A. Yes.

Q. And Polly's is down here at Camac and Locust Street?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. You never went up there?

A. No.

Q. The hotel is up this way a little bit?

A. Right across the street.

Q. You never went up near that hotel?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recall seeing anyone wearing a blue and black, black and orange, or any of those colors?

A. No.

Q. Now do you recall what you had on that evening?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Do you have any idea at all?

A. Maybe jeans. I know it was a pair of pants.

Q. As far as the top, did you have a blue and red top on that night?

A. Blue and red? No.

Q. How about a black and red top?

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A. No. The top I had on had to be light.

Q. You are certain of that?

A. Very certain.

MR. JACKSON: May I have one moment, please, Your Honor?

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant off of the record.)

MR. JACKSON: May I approach the witness?

BY MR.JACKSON:

Q. I ask you to look at this diagram and if you look all the way up here you will see a signature. Can you see a signature?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that your signature?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, is this the blank sheet that you talked about?

A. That I signed?

Q. Yes.

A. This is the drawing he was drawing and I signed it.

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Q. As you talked to him?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, was he drawing the diagram as you talked to him?

A. Well, what you have is already drawn. The dots and things like that weren't there.

Q. Now, on this diagram, and you can place it in your hand so you can look at it very closely, that diagram you indicate number one there is one man standing at the southeast corner of 13th and Locust. Do you see where it says "man," m-a-n?

A. Yes. I see where it says that.

Q. You just indicate one man?

A. I told him it was two men on that side of the street.

Q. But there is just "man" there?

A. I see it.

Q. You told him two men?

A. I told him it was two men on that side of the street.

Q. Now, after that man you have got a police car in between there and then you have the policeman, is that right?

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A. I don't have it, they have it. There is a police car there and there was two men on this side.

Q. You have got a vehicle in between the man and the policeman?

A. They never drew the man I said standing by the soda machine.

Q. Wait a minute. We are not talking about that right now. Do you see on the diagram we have here "man"? You are saying that it shouldn't be "man" that it should be "men"?

A. Yes.

Q. Then we have a vehicle that says "PC," hopefully meaning police car. Then after the police car we have an X and you have "policeman." Is that correct?

A. He asked me did the policeman stop the car and I told him I don't know. Evidentially he did, because he must have been questioning them. I don't know.

Q. You don't have any other car in there?

A. No. I didn't draw this.

Q. In any event, after the police car that you

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have, you have a policeman here by himself. Was he by himself?

A. I didn't see anything until I looked around the corner. I heard the shots. He was on the ground. There was two men there and there was a man by the soda machine. I think there was one maybe across the street by Whispers, but I am not sure.

Q. Again, so I am clear, you signed this --- never mind the signing. If you look down at, I guess it would be the bottom of the page on 13th Street, do you see that?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Now, the diagram indicates that is suppose to be you, that you walked --- you were first on 12th Street south of Locust Street and then you walked from 12th Street south of Locust Street to Locust Street, on the south side of Locust Street you started walking west up Locust Street towards the police officer. Isn't that correct?

A. I see the dots.

Q. Now, you told him to put those dots there, is that right?

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A. No.

Q. Who told him to put the dots there?

A. I don't know.

Q. You are saying when you first saw it the dots weren't there?

A. I am saying I was on 12th Street.

Q. I understand that. The diagram that you signed indicates that you walked from 12th Street up Locust Street.

A. Look, I don't know how they put it there. They must have put it a different way. I don't know. I can't say something that I don't know about. I know I was on 12th Street. I was not on 13th, Street. This is 13th Street, isn't it?

Q. No. Here is 13th Street up here. 13th Street is up at the top. This is 12th Street down here. They have you on the south side of Locust.

A. You see, where they put me ---

Q. (Interposing) That is wrong?

A. Yes. I was on this side. I told you that.

Q. I understand what you are telling me.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: No comments.

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Direct-V. Jones

MR. MCGILL: It is his witness.

THE COURT: Slow up a little bit. Relax a little bit.

MR. JACKSON: I will, Your Honor. I will try.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. By the way, on I guess it was the 15th of December were you intoxicated when the detectives interviewed you?

A. I was high.

Q. You were high?

A. Yes.

Q. How high?

A. How high?

Q. Yes.

A. Say half a nickel bag high.

Q. How high that is I don't really know. I mean you knew what you were saying?

A. I wanted to know how they knew where I lived at.

Q. That was your primary concern?

A. Yes.

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Q. But aside from wanting to know that the question is, did you know what you were saying to them?

A. Everybody was questioning me.

Q. Again, did you know what you were saying to them?

A. According to this right here it is a bunch of bull.

Q. Again, did you know what you were saying to them?

A. Somewhat, yes.

Q. Did you ever talk to a Detective Thomas in Philadelphia?

A. Who?

Q. Detective Thomas. William Thomas.

A. I don't know detectives by their names. No.

MR. MCGILL: He is outside.

MR. JACKSON: Maybe I will ask Detective Thomas to come in the courtroom.

THE COURT: Up the center here, please?

MR. JACKSON: Identify yourself for the record, sir?

DETECTIVE THOMAS: I am Detective

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Direct-V. Jones

William Thomas badge number 744 Homicide Division.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you recognize him?

A. No.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much, Officer. You can step outside.

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant off of the record.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you ever talked to him before?

A. No, sir. I never seen him.

Q. Now, on December the 9th, 1981 at about 3:50 in the morning what kind of hair style did you have?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you have long braids?

A. No.

Q. Did you have a Rastafirian hair style?

A. Who?

Q. Did you have Dreadlocks? Do you know what Dreadlocks are?

A. I know what they are.

Q. Did you have them?

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A. No.

Q. You didn't have any long braids?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Positive.

Q. How tall are you?

A. Five three.

Q. I suppose you had some kind of coat or jacket on. You said it was light colored, whatever it was?

A. (Indicating yes) Light gray jacket.

Q. Did you talk to the police about this incident that night?

A. All I know is that I had went to --- after I left off of 12th Street there is a store, I mean a restaurant called Nick's Roast Beef on Walnut Street. I used to sit in there with a man named Charlie and it came over the radio, but I did not ever call it in.

Q. What came over the radio?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: It is not offered as hearsay, Your Honor.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: I will have to sustain

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the objection unless you want to see me at sidebar.

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Let's be practical. You know and I know they didn't talk to her on that night, because they wouldn't have bothered going to Jersey looking for her.

MR. JACKSON: Maybe. What did she say about the radio call?

MR. MCGILL: She heard something come over the radio.

MR. JACKSON: About her?

MR. MCGILL: No.

THE COURT: About the incident.

MR. JACKSON: I understand. Fine.

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

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Direct-V. Jones

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. After that night --- you indicated that you were intoxicated that night, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. After you left the area did you leave alone?

A. The man that was with me walked me like down to Pine Street.

Q. Then you went home somehow?

A. Yes. I left.

Q. On public transportation?

A. No. I didn't go home.

Q. You went somewhere else?

A. Yes.

Q. Just so we are clear, again going back to December 9th, you were intoxicated from what, alcohol, drugs or what?

A. I was in an after hours place in South Philly. I was there a little while.

Q. What were you doing, drinking?

A. Yes.

Q. But after drinking there you nevertheless came back to 12th and Locust --- excuse me. To work. Is that right?

A. Did I come back to work?

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Q. Yes.

A. Straight back to work?

Q. Straight back.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. So that even though you were intoxicated you weren't too intoxicated in order to work, is that right?

A. I was not intoxicated. I wasn't that intoxicated.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. This is irrelevant. Also it is his witness.

MR. JACKSON: I just want to find out her state.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Before the police came to your house in Jersey did you tell anyone what you had seen or heard?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: I will let that go.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you tell anyone else what you had seen or heard?

A. I talked to my sister about it. Yes.

Q. When did you tell your sister?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. A few days later.

Q. But before the police arrived?

A. Yes. Because she had kept, you know, bringing it up.

Q. Now, other than this one day that the Police came to your home in Jersey to interview you, had you talked to any other police at any other time?

A. I had got locked up I think it was in January. I am not sure. Not January. I think sometime after that incident. They were getting on me telling me I was in the area and I seen Mumia, you know, do it, you know, intentionally. They were trying to get me to say something that the other girl said. I couldn't do that.

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you give them an interview?

A. No. They had locked me up. No.

Q. Do you know Cynthia White?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Did you see her that night?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Now, you got a chance to look up Locust Street

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Direct-V. Jones

didn't you, on the 9th?

A. Just to be looking?

Q. Yes. After the shots you looked up Locust Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Cynthia?

A. No.

Q. Had you seen Cynthia at all that night?

A. I just came to work. I can't say if she was there or not during the time I was there, no.

Q. She wasn't down in South Philadelphia with you, was she?

A. Where I was at?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant off of the record.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you know Prince?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see him that night?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: She can answer.

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Direct-V. Jones

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see Prince that night?

A. I seen Prince that morning like maybe around 7:00, 7:30.

Q. Where did you see him?

A. When I walked down after I left Nick's I sat there and drank for awhile.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. It is 7:30.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection to that.

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant off of the record.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Whatever the date was that you said you were arrested, do you know what police district that was?

A. 11th and Winter.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Irrelevant.

THE COURT: She already said 11th and Winter.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You are saying you did not give them a statement?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. They were more so conversating among each other and I guess they expected me to say something in their behalf, you know, but I couldn't. I just saw what I saw.

Q. And were they plain clothes officers or uniformed officers?

A. Uniformed.

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor. It is his witness.

THE COURT: Try not to lead, will you, please?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. What, if anything, did you say in response to those questions?

A. Nothing, really. I was just pissed off at the time.

Q. You were just what?

A. Pissed off.

Q. Why?

A. Because they picked me up for nothing.

Q. And did they release you?

A. Yes.

Q. And you weren't sent down to the Roundhouse?

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Direct-V. Jones

A. No. I was just held at 11th and Winter for about five hours.

Q. And how much time did they question you with regard to Cynthia White?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How much did they question you with regard to what you had seen?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The police officers questioned you about December 9th, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to know when you were taken in for nothing how much time did they spend with you questioning you?

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, I object. He is talking about January.

THE COURT: You better start over again.

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Direct-V. Jones

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss Jones, did you tell us that sometime after December 9th you were arrested by the police officers?

A. I was picked up.

Q. Do you know when?

A. No.

Q. Could it have been January or February?

A. It had to be the first week of January.

Q. You were taken where?

A. 11th and Winter.

Q. Which is the 6th District?

A. Yes.

Q. You were questioned by the police?

A. I wouldn't say questioned. Conversating. They had a couple of us. We had brought up --- I call him Lucky. We had brought up --- how come Lucky is not here?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Ask to strike.

THE COURT: Strike out that last thing.

MR. MCGILL: This is January. Objection to the whole line, Your Honor.

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Direct-V. Jones

It is his witness.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I want to go back to your being questioned.

MR. MCGILL: And I am objecting.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. JACKSON: Certainly, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Don't say she was being questioned now. Come on. Rephrase your question. You are presupposing something.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, she did say that earlier.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did the police ask you any questions about December the 9th when they picked you up in January?

MR. MCGILL: I am objecting to that as being irrelevant.

THE COURT: I will overrule it. Go-ahead.

BY MR JACKSON:

Q. In January did they question you about December the 9th?

A. It more so came about when we had brought up

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Direct-V. Jones

Cynthia's name and they told us we can work the area if we tell them.

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Come here.

MR. JACKSON: I am not responsible for her answers.

THE COURT: I know that.

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Where are we going?

MR. JACKSON: I want to ask her what the police asked her. I didn't know she was going to say that. I never talked to her before.

THE COURT: Why are you putting her on the stand? You told me you were putting her on the stand for one purpose and that is what she saw that night. Let's limit it to that.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, can I offer her

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Direct-V. Jones

for another purpose?

THE COURT: What purpose?

MR. JACKSON: To find out what she saw if she saw something.

THE COURT: Stick to that night then.

MR. JACKSON: I want to find out if there are any prior inconsistent statements.

THE COURT: The only statements they have is the written statement.

MR. JACKSON: She just said they asked her or they questioned her.

THE COURT: She didn't say that. She said they were talking among themselves. She has got somebody else being locked up with her. You should ask for a recess and take her outside and talk to her and interview her.

MR. MCGILL: It is too late now.

THE COURT: I know what your position is, but he should have talked to her before.

MR. JACKSON: I will talk to her

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Direct-V. Jones

now.

MR. MCGILL: No. Judge, she is going into facts and trying to say that the police are telling her she could work the area if they would tell us.

MR. JACKSON: I am not responsible for what she says.

THE COURT: We will take a recess.

- - -

(At this time court was recessed at 3:55 p.m.)

- - -

(Court was reconvened at 4:05 p.m.)

- - -

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: Did you have an opportunity to talk to her?

MR. JACKSON: I can give you the substance of what she said.

THE COURT: What, is the area that you are going to go into?

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Direct-V. Jones

MR. JACKSON: Just a summary of what she said is that she was picked up and she believed it was in the first week of January. She was picked up by uniformed officers who took her, as well as some other people, aside and said, "Look, we will let you work the street and we will do you just like we have done Lucky." Lucky is Cynthia White's name. "We want to ask you some questions about where you were, because we know Lucky said you were out there that night and you saw what happened," and all of that.

They told her that if she would give a statement that backed up Cynthia White they would let her work the street just like they were letting her work. They asked her where she was and who she was with.

That is what she said. I simply wanted to ask her what questions they asked her. I want to ask her what questions they asked and what answers she gave.

I suppose in all fairness some of

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Direct-V. Jones

what I just told you she will respond to I am not so sure that isn't relevant.

MR. MCGILL: I object to the whole area. As I have objected throughout. "You are talking about not an individual that took a particular statement from her. This is suppose to be some police officers that at one time arrested her after the fact and you are suppose to say for whatever reasons they have, good, bad or indifferent, even if you take it as true they are suppose to have said, "All right. Tell us what you know about it and we will let you work the street." This particular individual is of no relevance. We have unknown people who happen to be police officers who tell them "We will let you work the street like Lucky if you tell us what you know." Judge, it is absolutely irrelevant. I don't think one more question should be asked about that.

THE COURT: She is your witness. What she saw on Locust Street that night you can go into as thoroughly as you want to.

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Direct-V. Jones

All this other stuff is not relevant.

MR. MCGILL: Absolutely. It is already in, but I will ask that Your Honor strike from the record the last response.

MR. JACKSON: I would not, but in any event I am not going to respond to that.

MR. MCGILL: I ask that that be done.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. JACKSON: With regard to the surprise. Judge, it is legitimate. I have never spoken to this woman.

THE COURT: I don't care about surprise. I am saying it is not relevant to this case. You put her on because you say she saw something that night. Fine. Go into that area.

MR. JACKSON: I have found out that she knows more.

THE COURT: She doesn't know more. She seems to be saying "I can't say anything different than what I already told you."

MR. MCGILL: Have you ruled, Your

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Direct-V. Jones

Honor?

THE COURT: I did rule.

MR. MCGILL: That is it.

MR. JACKSON: Do you mind? What I am saying, Judge, is that once I establish it is surprise, because she is testifying differently than the statement ---

THE COURT: (Interposing) Let's stick to that night. Stick to what she saw if anything that night. You put her on because you felt she saw something. Fine.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, her statement was given on December the 15th relating to that.

THE COURT: You can use the statement to impeach her as to what she said happened that night.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, in addition to using her statement to impeach her can I also bring out her bias?

THE COURT: No, because she is your witness.

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Direct-V. Jones

MR. MCGILL: You have ruled five times.

THE COURT: She can testify to only what she saw that night. That is it.

MR. JACKSON: You are allowing me to impeach her with the statement?

THE COURT: Just to that night, because you said there is something in the statement that she saw two people jogging. As far as that she has already gone over that.

MR. JACKSON: You are saying I can't bring out any bias she would have today to testify?

MR. MCGILL: Absolutely not.

THE COURT: She is your witness.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, it is the fact she has given me different testimony.

THE COURT: This doesn't have anything to do with that.

MR. JACKSON: I think it does.

THE COURT: Let me say this. Under the rules that prior statement can be used as substantive ---

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Direct-V. Jones

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Not any more.

MR. JACKSON: It has been overruled.

MR. MCGILL: It can't even be used for that.

MR. JACKSON: It can be used for impeachment purposes.

MR. MCGILL: It can be used to the extent he already used it. I am objecting to any further action. If he wants to ask her what she did and what did she say, this and that, that is fine. But that has already been done. He has gone through the entire statement in that area and attempted to impeach her on that, because of surprise, Judge, and no more. I am objecting that it is repetitious now.

THE COURT: We are getting too far a field in this case. We have got to stick to the issue. The issue is who shot the cop and who saw anything that night. That is what I am interested in.

MR. JACKSON: If there is an

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Direct-V. Jones

indication a witness is going to testify let's say more for the prosecution or more for the defense?

THE COURT: She is not testifying for the prosecution.

I ruled. Stick to that night and that is all I am interested in. I am interested in what she saw that night, if anything.

- - -

(At this time the discussion in chambers was
concluded and court was reconvened at 4:lO p.m.)

- - -

(JURY PRESENT)

- - -

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss Jones, back on December 9th, you are familiar with the plain clothes officers who worked that area?

A. Very much.

Q. Did you see any plain clothes officer that night on December 9th?

A. They drive through, but I don't really look

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Direct-V. Jones

at them.

Q. How often are you in that area? Nightly? Every other day?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Irrelevant.

MR. JACKSON: I will withdraw that question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How often would you see a plain clothes officer on a given evening?

MR. MCGILL: I object. We are talking about the incident on trial.

THE COURT: Talk about that night.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. On December 9th, do you recall at anytime while you were at 12th and Locust, or 13th and Locust, or anywhere in that area, whether, in fact, you saw a plain clothes officer?

A. No. Like I said, I just got there.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. No further questions at this time.

MR. MCGILL: I should be ten or fifteen minutes, I think.

- - -

Page 147.

Direct-V. Jones

VERONICA JONES-CROSS-EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. This is your statement again, at least what purports to be your statement, that you were shown before.

A. Yes.

Q. As I understand what you are saying most of what you said in that statement is not true?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I am going to be asking you some questions over here because I maybe pointing to this chart. Now, you had stated before to Mr. Jackson that you were intoxicated that night?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you say very intoxicated?

A. No.

Q. You were just so-so intoxicated, or what?

A. I was there.

Q. You were there. Being there, as you stated, were you also intoxicated at the time that you were at 12th Street?

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Cross-V. Jones

A. I was intoxicated, but not to the point where I was staggering, no.

Q. Now, on this particular exhibit here this is 13th Street. This is 12th Street somewhere down here, indicating the right side of the chart. This is Camac Street here. You know where Camac Street is, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. That is the street in between 12th and 13th. Now, there is still quite a distance, would you not agree, from the point of Camac Street to 12th Street? Would that be accurate?

A. It is a small distance. Yes.

Q. If I were to say to you that there were approximately twelve houses, house fronts, you know those row house fronts, twelve house fronts from Camac Street to the end of 12th Street, would you disagree with me at that point?

MR. JACKSON: Objection. It is not relevant whether she agrees with him.

MR. MCGILL: I object.

Page 149.

Cross-V. Jones

THE COURT: Rephrase your question. Let her answer.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Approximately how many car lengths would you say it would be from Camac to 12th Street?

A. Not many, because there is a parking lot there. So, I would say about five cars could park on that side of the street.

Q. When you say "five cars could park," are you including the area which is in the parking lot?

A. No.

Q. So, would I be right in saying this is Camac Street and you would go five car lengths in this direction toward 12th Street and then you would have the parking lot which is on the same side of the street, correct?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. You have to say yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. Then you have that parking lot and that parking lot goes to the corner or goes to another house?

A. Into a house.

Q. And approximately how many car lengths in

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Cross-V. Jones

distance is the parking lot on Locust Street from one end of the parking lot to the other?

A. I would say about three.

Q. And then you said after that I think you mentioned something like a few houses, there were houses after that?

A. After the parking lot?

Q. Yes.

A. There is one building.

Q. One building. Then what is next after the building?

A. The corner.

Q. So, you then have five car lengths on the other side of Camac Street plus three, which is the parking lot, which is eight, plus the building, is that correct?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Then there is the corner?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you know how wide that building is in terms of a car length?

A. From the beginning to the corner?

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Cross-V. Jones

Q. Yes. Well, from one end of the building to the other. How many cars could you park in front of the building?

A. I would say a Monte Carlo and a Toyota.

Q. How many?

A. Two.

Q. That would give us then ten car lengths, wouldn't it, from Camac Street to 12th Street where you were?

A. Maybe.

Q. Now, where were you when you first heard the shots?

A. I was across the street. Like there is a building here. I would say standing right about here was that building on 12th Street.

Q. Were you anywhere near the Speedline on 12th Street?

A. The guy was laying up along the Speedline. I was talking to him.

Q. Were you then talking to the guy at the Speedline at the time when you heard the shots?

A. He was doing the talking.

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Cross-V. Jones

Q. But my point is, where were you when you heard the shots, were you talking to him at the Speedline entrance on 12th Street at the time that the shots were heard?

A. No. I wasn't at the entrance of the Speedline. The entrance is here. I was right in back of that entrance.

Q. Now, is the back of the entrance closer to Locust Street or closer to south of Locust Street? In other words, if you were to go down would you go down to 12th Street? You would have to be on 12th Street to walk down?

A. Yes, but it is further away from the corner.

Q. Further away from the corner?

A. Right.

Q. How far away from the corner is the High Speed entrance?

A. (No response)

Q. Since we are using the same measurements how about car lengths?

A. One car. Not even a whole car.

Q. Now, you recall that incident now, is that correct?

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Cross-V. Jones

A. Yes.

Q. Do you feel all right?

A. I am freezing. Pay me no mind.

Q. Perhaps a sweater of some sort?

A. I am okay. I am anemic. I am okay.

Q. Anytime you want water let us know.

You are here on the corner of 12th Street down there about one car length down, or not quite a car length, is that right?

A. I was on that side of the street.

Q. This side of the street. Okay. There is the Speedline entrance on that side also, the south side?

A. Right.

Q. This is south and this is north. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. You are saying you are on the north side of the street?

A. Right.

Q. You are one car length above Locust Street on the north side of 12th Street?

A. Right.

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Cross-V. Jones

Q. And that is when you heard three shots? Were there three?

A. I wasn't counting. I just heard shots.

Q. Do you have any idea how many there were, or would that just be a guess? If it is a guess then don't say it.

A. I just know a gun shot when I hear one.

Q. You heard more than one?

A. It was more than one, but I can't say whether it was three.

Q. At the time the shots went off were you at that point being talked to by this gentleman?

A. He was talking more so trying to figure out --- I wasn't that far away from the edge of the building.

Q. Okay. What I am saying is, you didn't know shots were going to go off?

A. Oh, no.

Q. So, you were talking to him while the shots went off, is that correct, at the time the shots went off?

A. Yes.

Page 155.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. Now, at that point you were, I believe as you said, almost there in terms of being intoxicated?

A. Almost there.

Q. How long had you been drinking before then in the South Philadelphia place that you went to?

A. I had about three.

Q. Just three?

A. I am not one to get drunk too fast. I had about three and some marijuana.

Q. Did you have anything else besides that?

A. No.

Q. How much marijuana did you have?

A. I wasn't counting when they were passing it.

Q. Would you have had more than maybe two or three or four?

A. (Pause) No. I don't think it was that many.

Q. Over what period of time were you smoking this marijuana?

A. I got there about say twenty minutes to 3:00. The club closes at ten of 2:00, 2:00 o'clock. So, I would say about 2:3O. Between that time I got there. It doesn't take that long to get there.

Q. Around 2:30 to ten minutes to 3:00?

Page 156.

Cross-V. Jones

A. I got there around that time. I don't know.

Q. When did you start smoking the marijuana?

A. I started early that night, because it didn't really bother me.

Q. I was trying to figure that out. When did you first start smoking the marijuana that day, if you can remember?

A. If you smoke marijuana all day by the end of the day you be tired and you don't really be high.

Q. Were you, in fact, smoking the marijuana all day?

A. On and off.

Q. So, over the entire day on and off you were smoking marijuana?

A. Yes.

Q. During the course of that same day were you doing any partying at all any place?

A. No. I have children to take care of. I wasn't going to any party.

Q. Were you drinking at all wherever you were?

A. No.

Q. And you went out what times?

A. I got in the club about ll:OO, 11:30.

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Cross-V. Jones

Q. While you were in the club you were there from 11:30 until when, 2:3O?

A. 2:00, a quarter to 2:O0.

Q. During that period of time did you smoke any more marijuana?

A. No, you can't smoke in the club.

Q. Did you drink during that period of time, drink any beers?

A. I had two beers. I had two tickets.

Q. Did you meet any gentlemen in there?

A. Quite a few gentlemen, yes.

Q. Did they buy you drinks?

A. No, they didn't.

Q. You only had the two that you bought?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, after you finished and left that club you left at around a quarter to 2:00 or 2:3O?

A. A quarter to 2:OO. The club closes at 2:O0. About a quarter to 2:00 or 2:00 o'clock.

Q. Then how did you get to 12th Street?

A. I went down to South Philly first after the club.

Q. Excuse me. You went to the club? I thought

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Cross-V. Jones

the club was in South Philadelphia?

A. The club is the 13 Club on 13th and Locust.

Q. At that point you then went to the South Philadelphia club for about how long?

A. About an hour.

Q. Did you have anything to drink there?

A. Like I said, I had three.

Q. Did you smoke any marijuana there?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember how many you smoked there?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Did you smoke any marijuana on the way to the club from Thirteen?

A. No.

Q. On the way back did you smoke any marijuana?

A. No.

Q. So, at that point when you finally arrived at 12th Street there you were, as you say, almost there?

A. Right.

Q. At the time you heard the shots and you were talking to him do you recall what you were saying?

A. I was arguing with him.

Page 159.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. Did you continue to argue after the shots?

A. No.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I walked away from him and looked around the corner.

Q. When you looked around the corner you looked around the corner on the north side, is that correct?

A. On that side.

Q. North I am going up like this and south is down like that. This is 13th and this is Locust. This is 12th. So, were you north?

A. I was on that side.

Q. Were you on the left side of 12th or the right side?

A. Left side.

Q. Then did you feel anxious or scared at all when you heard the shots?

A. I wanted to know what was going on.

Q. Were you at all concerned that maybe you might be hit by something, or anything like that?

A. I didn't know whether a fight was breaking out. Yes.

Page 160.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. Did you then immediately walk over there, or did you slowly approach the corner to see what happened?

A. I am very nosey. I immediately walked over.

Q. Did you stay on that side?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You did not walk across the street at all?

A. No.

Q. Then you looked down the street?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. And is it then that you say you saw two men?

A. Yes.

Q. And those two men, looking at this chart, were they on this side of the street or were they on that side of the street?

A. When I looked up Locust Street I seen two men on this side and I seen the body laying out and I just looked around and I seen another man by the soda machine, but it was more so deserted out on the street.

Q. Rather than have you move there tell me if I am wrong on this? When you say you saw two men over there are you referring to where then officer was shot?

A. Yes.

Page 161.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. That is in the same general area where the officer was shot?

A. Yes.

Q. The other man that you said you saw by the soda machine, the soda machine is on the north side of Locust?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that close to the corner?

A. He was walking away from the soda machine. Like maybe towards the corner, I guess, but he didn't leave off the corner.

Q. That is all you saw according to what you said to Mr. Jackson?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. You did not see anybody running down Locust Street, did you, towards the south part of Locust Street going in that direction? Did you see anybody running there?

A. No.

Q. Did you see anybody running down the north side of Locust Street?

A. No.

Q. Or running either that way or that way which

Page 162.

Cross-V. Jones

would be toward 13th Street?

A. No.

Q. At that point I think you said police cars started to come and at that point you left because they chase you?

A. Yes. When I seen the lights coming from Broad Street.

Q. Broad Street?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. So, was it the first police car that you saw coming from Broad Street, which would be over here?

A. The first police car I saw was right parked on Locust Street. I seen the wagon lights coming from Broad Street.

Q. Wagon lights?

A. Yes.

Q. They would be coming in this direction?

A. This way.

MR. MCGILL: Indicating in an easterly direction on Locust Street.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. That was the first wagon you saw, correct?

A. Yes.

Page 163.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. Was this a wagon or police car?

A. A wagon, I guess. I just seen the police lights.

Q. Did you see any other police cars coming in any other direction?

A. No.

Q. Was it just that after you saw the first wagon coming that is when you turned around and left?

A. I turned this way and left.

Q. You went like this?

A. South.

Q. So, you then said you saw that police car coming here and then you turned around and then left going south and you kept on going south past Locust Street and that was it?

A. I was going towards the restaurant.

Q. I didn't hear you.

A. Going towards the restaurant.

Q. Would it be fair to say that you did not then at anytime, at any point, return to Locust Street while the police were there?

A. No. I went straight up to Pine Street.

Q. Which way?

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Cross-V. Jones

A. That way south.

Q. Past the restaurant?

A. Yes.

Q. You went past the restaurant and went to Pine Street and then what?

A. Made a right. I took the long way back to Locust Street.

Q. You made a right on Pine Street and went all the way to Broad Street?

A. Right.

Q. And you agree with me that if you go down to Pine Street, which would be south of Locust, then you walked the long way at least two full blocks to Broad Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you walked up Broad Street?

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. Then you walked ---

A. (Interposing) Stood there.

Q. At Broad and ---

A. (Interposing) Locust. All I saw was a plot of police cars.

Q. And that was it?

Page 165.

Cross-V. Jones

A. Yes.

Q. At that time, as I understand what you just said, you at no time walked either close in that direction, or in that direction, indicating east on Locust Street, is that right?

A. Right.

Q. As I also understand what you are saying according to your responses to Mr. Jackson, you knew that the two men were, I believe you said black males, but you really were unable to make any further description, is that correct?

A. Yes. I knew they were black, but I didn't know who they were.

Q. That was it?

A. Right.

Q. Did you see a Volkswagen there?

A. On Locust Street?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. Had you seen that Volkswagen before there?

A. The only thing I seen was I seen it circle maybe twice. Once or twice. I don't know. I really wasn't paying any mind.

Page 166.

Cross-V. Jones

Q. There were some points that I wish to ask you here if I can on this statement. This is on page two. Did you see a Volkswagen parked on Locust Street that night? I saw a green Volkswagen go around the block a couple of times that night before the shooting. It was driven by a black guy. Did you say that?

A. No.

Q. You didn't say that?

A. No.

Q. Did you know Officer Faulkner at all?

A. Yes. I knew him.

Q. Did you tell the police that you knew Faulkner, "He saved me from being robbed once"?

A. Yes. And beaten up.

Q. Is that right?

A. True. Very true.

Q. Officer Daniel Faulkner, the one that died, saved you from being robbed one time?

A. Yes, he did. And beaten up.

Q. Was that the same incident or two separate

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Cross-V. Jones

incidents?

A. Two separate incidents.

Q. I am going to ask you if you would read that to yourself here and see if you recall saying that?

MR. JACKSON: Can I have the page?

MR. MCGILL: Page four. The last question and answer.

MR. JACKSON: May we see you at sidebar, please?

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

MR. JACKSON: It is hearsay.

THE COURT: Where are you going with that?

MR. MCGILL: I will withdraw it.

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

MR. MCGILL: I will withdraw the question, Your Honor. Nothing further.

Page 168.

Cross-V. Jones

Thank you.

- - -

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant.)

- - -

VERONICA JONES-REDIRECT EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Just so I am clear, first of all you said that night of December 9th --- did you say you saw or you don't remember if you saw Cynthia White?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Beyond cross-examination. I object to that area.

THE COURT: Let me see you at sidebar.

(The following is a sidebar discussion with both counsel present.)

THE COURT: For what purpose?

MR. MCGILL: My objection goes two ways. Number one, it is beyond cross-examination. If he wants to reopen I object to it. It has been covered completely.

Page 169.

Redirect-V. Jones

THE COURT: What do you want to ask?

MR. JACKSON: I don't remember whether she said she didn't see her.

THE COURT: She said she didn't see her.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. If she didn't see her then I don't have to have her answer the question.

The only other thing I wanted to know is whether or not she and Cynthia have talked since this incident and whether or not there has been collusion in effect between the two of them before either one of them testified. I think I have a right to know that.

THE COURT: What is your position now? He wants to know whether she talked to Cynthia.

MR. MCGILL: The problem there is that --- well, it is wrong to get into that area to begin with. It emphasizes it. I know what he is trying to do and I am

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Redirect-V. Jones

objecting to it.

THE COURT: The question is whether or not she had talked to Cynthia about this incident since then?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. MCGILL: Yes, there is an objection.

THE COURT: What is the objection?

MR. MCGILL: The objection is, number one, he has already finished direct examination and this is cross-examination. I am objecting to it being reopened.

Secondly, the primary reason for the objection is that I believe that the area that he is going into particularly about Cynthia is going far a field and even if this were a relevant question on direct examination it does nothing but emphasize the areas which were inadmissible and improperly allowed.

THE COURT: Let me ask you a question now. Suppose she says "Yes, we did

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Redirect-V. Jones

talk about it." Then where would you go?

MR. JACKSON: I want to know whether or not the testimony that Cynthia has given in this trial and Billy's trial and the preliminary hearing, as well as the statements to the police is because she knows about that and because of her conversations with Cynthia she has now changed the story with regard to seeing those two men.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: We have the witnesses sequestered. How would she know what Cynthia said at these trials?

MR. MCGILL: I object.

MR. JACKSON: Don't I have a right to find out whether there was collusion between her and Cynthia?

THE COURT: There is no collusion, because she is testifying as to what she saw, which is nowhere near what Cynthia testified to. She is not the judge of Cynthia's testimony, that is for the jury.

Page 172.

Redirect-V. Jones

MR. JACKSON: I understand. I am not trying to judge Cynthia's testimony. Judge, what I am saying is I should have a right to find out if there is some reason, some bias for her testimony today.

THE COURT: If you want to talk to her later on I guess you can, but I don't think you ought to ask that question while she is on the witness stand before you know what she is going to answer.

MR. Mc.GILL: I am objecting at this point.

THE COURT: I am denying it now.

MR. JACKSON: I can dismiss her now and bring Cynthia White on because Cynthia White isn't going to take long.

MR. MCGILL: I object.

MR. JACKSON: I would reserve the right to talk to her.

MR. MCGILL: This is really going far a field. Judge, you ruled that he cannot proceed with this line of questioning.

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Redirect-V. Jones

MR. JACKSON: He has not.

THE COURT: Yes I have, because you can't follow that question up with anything. You want her to judge what Cynthia White said.

MR. JACKSON: No. Leave Cynthia's testimony as such out of it. Has she talked to Cynthia White. Of course they are going to talk about the case, but as a result of her conversations with Cynthia has her testimony been somehow impacted.

THE COURT: Whose testimony?

MR. JACKSON: Veronica's. The one who is testifying now.

THE COURT: She hasn't said anything different.

MR. JACKSON: She has.

THE COURT: No she hasn't.

MR. JACKSON: That is the whole point. She said in the statement there were two men there.

THE COURT: If you want to call those cops in to say that she said that you can.

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Redirect-V. Jones

MR. JACKSON: I will definitely call them.

THE COURT: That is the way to do it. You can't be fighting with her. She said she didn't say that. If you want to bring the cops in to say that she said that then that is fine.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, if somebody says "I didn't say something ---

THE COURT: (Interposing) You can't get every witness that you put on the stand and put them through a lie detector test.

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor can stop it by ruling.

THE COURT: I have ruled.

- - -

(At this time the sidebar discussion was
concluded and the following is in open court.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss Jones, did you see anyone move form one position and go to another position on December 9th when you looked up Locust Street?

Page 175.

Redirect-V. Jones

A. Yes. The man that was by the soda machine.

Q. And where did he move?

A. Just from the soda machine to the corner, I guess.

Q. To the corner of 13th and Locust?

A. Yes.

Q. He stayed in your view?

A. Yes.

Q. About how long would you estimate that you looked up Locust Street before you saw the police?

A. Maybe five or ten minutes.

Q. Five or ten minutes?

A. It took them about five to ten minutes. It must have took them about a few minutes to get there. I am not sure.

Q. When you say "them to get there" you mean the police?

A. Yes.

Q. Did any police pass you --- did you see a police wagon pass you?

A. No.

Q. You are right on the northwest corner of 13th --- I am sorry--- 12th and Locust?

Page 176.

Redirect-V. Jones

A. (Indicating yes)

Q. You are certain the police wagon that you saw first came from the area of Broad Street?

A. It was coming from up Locust Street. Like I said, I had a couple of drinks. I don't really know. All I seen was lights.

MR. JACKSON: I have no further questions at this time, but I reserve my right to recall this witness perhaps tomorrow. Thank you.

MR. MCGILL: No further questions on cross-examination.

MR. JACKSON: Before she does leave ---

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Are you going to make a speech?

MR. JACKSON: I just have a couple of questions.

THE COURT: You changed your mind?

MR. JACKSON: Because I may not have to recall her.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The two men that you saw --- first of all,

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Redirect-V. Jones

they were just standing there?

A. They didn't go nowhere. Not that I seen.

Q. Both of them continued to stand there?

A. They didn't run. They was just there.

Q. How far apart were they?

A. A small distance.

Q. Would you say between two or three feet?

A. I can't really say how far apart they were.

Q. Now, how is it that you know --- maybe you said it and I don't remember. You said that the officer fell, or you knew they were standing where the officer was?

A. I know I seen someone laying down. Yes.

Q. You could see someone laying down?

A. From that distance you could see the body. Yes.

Q. Where, was the body?

A. There was a part hanging off the curb. I don't know. I don't know. I left. I don't know.

Q. The two men were they facing the same direction or the opposite direction, as best as you can recall?

A. I can't recall.

Page 178.

Redirect-V. Jones

Q. The officer that was on the ground, did you see his entire body or part of his body?

A. I seen part of his body, because, you know, the guy I was talking to he was looking, but he told me I should go-ahead and leave and I was going to leave anyway.

Q. Did you see anyone sitting on the curb, too?

A. On the south side?

Q. The same side of the street that these men and the police officer were?

A. No. I don't think I was there that long.

Q. Those two men, you never saw one of them fall?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. It is his witness.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see either of the two men leave before you left?

A. I can't say, because I was being more so distracted by him and wanting to get out of there. He mentioned something about he had a weapon on him and he didn't want to be there. I was trying to be nosey

Page 179.

Redirect-V. Jones

plus listen to him at the same time.

Q. Did you happen to see anything in either man's hand, the two men, did you notice anything in their hands?

A. No.

Q. Could you see the officer's hands while he was on the ground?

A. No.

Q. Were there cars between you and the men, you and the officer? Do you know what I am saying?

A. It has been so long. I don't know. I don't know.

(At this time Mr. Jackson conferred with the Defendant.)

MR. JACKSON: Again I have no further questions at this point, but I reserve my right to recall the witness.

THE COURT: Let's have the next witness.

- - -

(WITNESS EXCUSED)

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Page 180.

Direct-C. White

MR. JACKSON: Cynthia White.

- - -

CYNTHIA WHITE, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

CYNTHIA WHITE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, just a couple of questions. On December 9th you saw the man running across the street with the gun in his hand, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. What hand did he have the gun in?

A. I don't remember.

Q. That is what you testified to earlier, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. If you saw the gun in his hand why is it you don't know what hand it was in?

MR. MCGILL: I object. It is his witness.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

Page 181.

Direct-C. White

MR. JACKSON: I am trying to refresh her recollection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Back on December the 8th, 1982, page fifty-seven, question at the top of the page. You saw him run across toward the officer, the driver of the Volkswagen?

Answer: Yes.

Question: While he was in the street you said you noticed there was a gun in his left-hand?

Answer: Yes.

Do you remember that question and answer back on December the 8th, 1982?

I was asking you the questions.

A. Yes.

Q. So, again, let me ask you, in what hand did he have the gun in?

A. I don't know. I am not sure.

Q. You are not sure. Same day. Page fifty-eight.

Question: You saw him running across the street at some point in time in the middle

Page 182.

Direct-C. White

of the street, you say you saw in the left-hand a gun?

Answer: Yes.

Do you remember that question and answer?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the hand the gun was in?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Just so we are clear ---

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Objection. Again, it is his witness.

MR. JACKSON: I understand it is my witness.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You can just direct your attention to this diagram, Miss White. If you were standing here the man you indicate was coming from this parking lot, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. If the gun was in his left-hand that means between you and him at some point in time his body would have shielded the gun, isn't that true?

MR. MCGILL: Judge?

Page 183.

Direct-C. White

THE COURT: I will have to sustain the objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did his body shield the gun?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Sure. You were standing here. The man was coming from here somewhere from the parking lot. I believe your testimony has been that you first saw the gun when he was in the middle of the street, is that right?

A. Right.

Q. The question is if you were here seeing him in the middle of the street, did his body shield the gun from you?

A. No.

Q. Did you also say that he had his hand down when he was going across the street?

A. No.

Q. You didn't say that?

A. I don't remember saying that.

Q. Let me ask you now. Did he have his hand down or up?

Page 184.

Direct-C. White

MR. MCGILL: Objection. At what point?

MR. JACKSON: When she saw him in the middle of the street.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Was his hand up or down?

A. (Pause) I don't remember exactly.

Q. You can't remember if his hands were up or down, but you remember you saw the gun, is that what you are saying?

A. Yes.

Q. And you don't remember what hand it was in?

A. No.

Q. You are certain it was in the left-hand?

A. I said ---

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. JACKSON: Can I have a moment, please?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. When the person fired the gun after running across the street, what hand did that person have the gun in?

Page 185.

Direct-C. White

A. (Pause) I don't remember.

Q. The first shot or two, whatever, one or two shots, did you see the flash from the gun, or did you just hear it?

A. I don't remember seeing the flash.

Q. You know that the sound came from the area of where the officer was? You are certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. When the person was standing over top of the officer did you see any flash, any gun flash?

A. I don't remember.

Q. When the person was standing over top of the officer when Mr. McGill asked you to demonstrate you demonstrated the person's right-hand jerking. Why did you do that?

A. Because I am right-handed.

Q. Is that the only reason?

A. Yes.

Q. But you told us at least in previous testimony that the person had the gun in his left-hand?

MR. MCGILL: Sir, he is cross-examining his own witness.

THE COURT: I will sustain the

Page 186.

Direct-C. White

objection.

MR. MCGILL: Every question, Judge.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So, let me ask you this, the demonstration that you previously gave with Mr. McGill, was it accurate?

A. What do you mean?

Q. The demonstration, was it accurate that you gave? You demonstrated before what happened that evening. I want to know whether it was an accurate demonstration of what happened of what you saw?

A. I still don't understand what you are saying.

Q. I want to know if it was true? In other words, when you got up and you pantomimed and did what you did I want to know was it pretty much what you saw?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. But you have an exception and one of those exceptions is that rather than the right-hand it was the left-hand?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. She said

Page 187.

Direct-C. White

she did not know the hand.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Let me ask you this. The testimony that I have read from January the 8th, does that refresh your recollection in anyway as to what hand the person had the gun in?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember whether or not this refreshes your recollection?

A. What hand it was in?

Q. Well, would it be fair to say that on January the 8th your recollection was better than it is today?

A. (Pause ) What do you mean?

Q. Sure. On January the 8th, which is about twenty-nine, thirty days from the date of the incident, wouldn't you say that your memory was better then than it is today?

A. (Pause) No.

Q. Your memory is better today than it was then?

A. No difference in my memory.

Page 188.

Direct-C. White

Q. Well, on January the 8th you said the left-hand. Today, you said you don't remember. Yet you said there is no difference in your memory?

A. I don't know which hand it was in.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

- - -

CYNTHIA WHITE-CROSS-EXAMINATION

- - -

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Miss White, I am referring to the hearing before Judge Ribner. I don't have it in front of me so I don't know the date.

MR. JACKSON: January 11th.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. January 11th. Page one zero six. Do you recall at another hearing being asked similar questions and saying you cannot recall whether it was the left or right-hand?

A. Yes.

Q. This is one zero six. I am going to ask these questions and answers and the hearing was before Judge Ribner in room 613. If that helps you to recall.

Page 189.

Cross-C. White

This is the question and answer:

What hand did he have the gun in?

Answer: I am not sure. I believe it was the left.

You believe it was what?

Answer: The left. I am not sure if it was the left or right.

On Friday you were sure it was the left and today your answer no I --- then there is an objection. Then another question and answer. You say you are not sure today what hand it was?

I said I believe it was in the left, but I am not sure.

Do you recall those questions and answers?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that what you are telling Mr. Jackson today?

A. Yes.

Q. That you don't know which hand it was in?

A. Yes.

Now, at the time that you saw this, Miss White

Page 190.

Cross-C. White

at the time you saw the Defendant running from the parking lot you had the opportunity to observe his hand from the time that he ran from the parking lot until the time he was over the officer firing down, isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Wouldn't it be fair to say, Miss White, that that total time period may well have been somewhere in the area of perhaps --- well, less than a minute, at least thirty seconds, or something of that nature?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you also recall telling Judge Ribner --- excuse me. That you were at least aware the man had a gun in his hand? In other words, do you recall being asked by Mr. Jackson whether or not you were able to tell whether something was in his hand or not? Do you recall that or don't you recall?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Page one zero seven and one zero eight of the same hearing. When you saw him running across the

Page 191.

Cross-C. White

street you said you saw a gun in his hand, is that right?

Answer: Yes.

How much of the gun did you see?

Then there were objections.

One zero nine.

You say you saw the gun. What did you see?

Answer: I guess --- I don't know. The barrel or whatever you call it.

Do you remember those questions and answers?

A. Yes.

Q. Also on page one zero nine.

Was there something that you could see other than the hand?

Answer: Yes.

That material that you saw other than the hand was that cardboard, paper, wood or metal?

These questions were by the judge.

Your answer was: Metal.

Do you recall that question and answer?

Page 192.

Cross-C. White

A. Yes.

Q. What time did you see the metal in the Defendant's hand?

Do you recall whether it was while he was running across the street or when he was over the officer?

A. When he was in the middle of the street.

Q. And when you saw the metal in his hand would you show the jury exactly how it was positioned, how his hand was positioned? In other words, how was his hand when you saw the metal in his hand?

MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. She can't tell how his hand was positioned, because she already testified she doesn't know what hand it is in.

MR.MCGILL: He can save that argument for his summation if he wishes.

MR. JACKSON: That is an objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Move on.

Page 193.

Cross-C. White

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Miss White, would you demonstrate how the weapon was, or when you first saw the metal in his hand how the hand was, whether or not it was the right or left-hand? Demonstrate it with your right-hand?

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, of course I object.

THE COURT: Go-ahead.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Did you understand?

A. (Indicating no)

Q. When you saw the gun in his hand show us how it was with your own hand?

A. It was in his hand. I seen the part here.

Q. You are indicating your right-hand. You don't know whether it is the right or left?

A. No.

Q. How was it positioned when you did see it in his hand? How was his arm positioned?

A. What time?

Q. Okay. When you saw the metal in his hand

Page 194.

Cross-C. White

that was when he was running across the street?

A. (No response)

Q. Do you understand?

A. (No response)

Q. Do you want me to ask it again?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw the Defendant running across the street, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw a piece of metal which you indicated was the barrel of the gun in his hand, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, how was it in his hand, or how was his arm positioned when you saw the barrel in his hand?

A. I don't remember if it was up or down.

Q. Now, was that during the course of the time when he was running across the street?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you keep your eyes on the Defendant from the times that he ran from the parking lot until the time that he stood over the police officer and fired downwards?

A. Yes.

Page 195.

Cross-C. White

Q. Did you see anybody else anywhere with any kind of weapon around the officer at that time?

A. No.

Q. The officer was on the ground and the Defendant was on top of him pointing his arm down, isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Although you may not have seen the weapon in his hand you saw his arm pointed in the direction of the officer, isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you heard shots when his arm was positioned in the direction of the officer, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Then immediately after that you then walked over to --- he walked over to the curb and slumped down, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You had your eyes on him during that entire time?

A. Yes.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you.

Page 196.

Redirect-C. White

MR. JACKSON: I have a few more.

MR. MCGILL: I would object.

THE COURT: It is redirect.

MR. JACKSON: I have a right to defend this man's life.

MR. MCGILL: Oh gees.

- - -

CYNTHIA WHITE - REDIRECT EXAMINATION

- - -

Q. You indicated that you don't remember what hand but you know you kept your eye on him and you know you saw his arm jerk. How can you tell us that if you don't know what hand?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: That is sustained.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. Again I understand she is my witness, Your Honor. Unfortunately.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, you indicated previously that you saw the hand go up and down, is that correct?

Page 197.

Redirect-C. White

A. Yes.

Q. You don't know whether it was the right-hand or the left-hand going up and down, but you know a hand was going up and down?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, on January the 8th, which was a Friday, without hesitation you said the gun was in his left-hand. Over the weekend ---

MR. MCGILL: (Interposing) Objection. This is repetitious.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I am going back to the llth, on the 11th when you testified at the hearing before Judge Ribner you testified --- well, let me do it this way.

Page one zero four. This is Mr. McGill questioning you.

Question: You are indicating with your right arm and you are jabbing in a --- you are pointing with your finger, rather with your index finger two or three times. And is that toward the ground where the police officer was?

Answer: Yes.

You answered that question when he

Page 198.

Redirect-C. White

asked or when he described to you that you were pointing with your right-hand?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that question and answer?

A. Yes.

Q. Page one zero five. Again Mr. McGi11.

So that what you meant when you said you observed the Defendant over the police officer firing you saw his back and movement of his right arm, or his arm rather in the direction of the ground?

Your answer: Yes.

Do you remember that question and answer?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember anything I ask you, do you?

THE COURT: Quiet in the courtroom.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions, Your Honor.

MR. MCGILL: I have nothing further.

Thank you.

- - -

(WITNESS EXCUSED)

Page 199.

- - -

THE COURT: We will recess for the day until tomorrow morning at 9:30.

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(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)




I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the trial of the above cause, and that this copy is a correct transcript of the same.



Official Stenographer




The foregoing record of the proceedings upon the trial of the above cause is hereby approved and directed to be filed.



Judge